BS EN 4872 or ISO 9606? What should I do?

[Brad93]

I am booking in to do some MMA codings in September/October and thought it would be a good idea to kill two birds with one stone, and do an aluminium and stainless TIG coding at the same time. Perhaps a butt weld & fillet in both.

What would you guys say is best to do, a 'competence test' BS EN 4872 or go the whole hog and do the code to procedure, ISO 9606?

I think, the 4872 test is cheaper but can't remember now.

 

[hotrodder]

I suspect the 4872 is a LOT cheaper. If it's for your own satisfaction or a bit of paper to wave at insurance companies/prospective employers i'd have thought that 4872 is more useful most of the time... while 9606 would obviously prove you can cut the mustard at a 'higher' level it's tied to procedures so otherwise pretty much useless unless you're regularly working within said procedure to keep the certs up to date with signatures

Whichever specs i'd be looking at doing the min number of tests for the largest return i.e. a 6G so you're covered for all positions (inc fillets IIRC?) etc and picking test coupons to give the largest range of material thicknesses, pipe diameters etc

 

[Kent]

No point doing a code you can't keep up or you wave it goodbye
Look at the work your doing

 

[Brad93]

Thanks for the reply hotrodder, i think i will go down the 4872 route. Hi kent, I'm self-employed for all my TIG work so there is no way I would keep the code in date unless NDT firms can update it or i do a quick retest. For TIG i want it more to say, coded to etc in Aluminium & Stainless steel on my website and business brochures etc.

 

[Kent]

Thanks for the reply hotrodder, i think i will go down the 4872 route. Hi kent, I'm self-employed for all my TIG work so there is no way I would keep the code in date unless NDT firms can update it or i do a quick retest. For TIG i want it more to say, coded to etc in

Aluminium & Stainless steel on my website and business brochures etc.

And will the costs be refunded plus some? Only you can take that guess
Generally you do this because a client requires it rather than bait for one that might
The costs will fund a lot of marketing to those that don't but it depends on who's door you are knocking on

 

[HughF]

Would Aws d17.1 be relevant to you? I seem to remember you mostly do fine sheet metal fabrications is SS and alu?

 

[hotrodder]

D17.1 or BCAR A8-10 would be more relevant to me in many respects but like ASME IX or iso9606 they're far more job specific and you need to be working regularly to those standards in the right environment to keep them up to date. Personally i'd never pay for any of those out of my own pocket

Out of date and one of, if not the, most expensive places to test out at probably but as there's some ball park pricing for several different 'codes' and weld types... http://www.twitraining.com/home/cou...welder-training-information-february-2014.pdf

 

[HughF]

It was my understanding that if you picked the right material thickness to certify on then that would cover you for a decent range, start with the correct thickness and you'd be covered for most of your work? Talking 17.1 here...

Is there no where this side of the pond selling the d17.1 sheet test packs?

 

[Welderpaul]

It was my understanding that if you picked the right material thickness to certify on then that would cover you for a decent range, start with the correct thickness and you'd be covered for most of your work? Talking 17.1 here...

Is there no where this side of the pond selling the d17.1 sheet test packs?

9606 is certainly like that, we do ours on 12.5mm which then covers 3mm to 25mm.

 

[hotrodder]

Generalising d17.1 thickness allowances are 0.67t - 4t. Google AWS D17.1 0.67t and you get a few hits that explain the exception to that rule as well as covering what automatically qualifies other positions, material groups etc and when a groove weld doesn't qualify a fillet and so on
I've posted links to a guide for BCAR A8-10 before, general overviews are freely available for the CAA standards compared to AWS or BS EN / ISO standards so it's pretty easy to find a fair bit of detail

Paul's covered from 3 to 25mm with a test on 12.5mm because 9606 works differently... thickness (t) ≥ 3mm qualify from 3mm upto whatever(2t?) but single pass doesn't qualify multi run and visa versa? Thicknesses ≤ 3mm cover from t upto 3mm i believe
With pipe/tube if d is > 25mm then your test piece covers you from 0.5 (min dia of 25mm though) - 2d and also qualifies plate?
If d is < 25mm then you're qualified from d - 2d and butts no longer qualify fillets?

All of the above need regular validation or at some point after 6 months to 2 years they become a piece of paper that says you once made a weld to whatever standard on some day so if you're not regularly working within said specification in the right environment to get things signed off/stamped up they don't carry much more weight than an expired passport?

I've got a vague recollection that with 4872 a generalisation would be 0.75t - 2t and 0.5d - 2d? Because it's not tied to procedures and is more of a basic competancy test it's cheaper and doesn't need stuff being signed off on regularly, more that reapproval is recommended every two years or if you quit welding for 6 + months? Personally i think a portfolio is more useful a lot of the time but the world doesn't exist to please me and if the sort of being chased involves dealing with HR or managment types monkeys in suits or [shudder] agency scum [/shudder] an industry recognised cert may be more useful than a portfolio showing the sort of work you're capable of because the latter wasn't tested against any standard

 

[HughF]

Couldn't have said it better myself...

 

[Welderpaul]

Paul's covered from 3 to 25mm with a test on 12.5mm because 9606 works differently... thickness (t) ≥ 3mm qualify from 3mm upto whatever(2t?) but single pass doesn't qualify multi run and visa versa? Thicknesses ≤ 3mm cover from t upto 3mm i believe

All of the above need regular validation or at some point after 6 months to 2 years they become a piece of paper that says you once made a weld to whatever standard on some day so if you're not regularly working within said specification in the right environment to get things signed off/stamped up they don't carry much more weight than an expired passport?

BS 9606 lasts for three years with a prolongation (that I can sign off for my welders) every six months. Our tests were all multi run on butts and fillets which covers single runs.
The previous BS 287 lasted two years.

 

[Brad93]

Anyone know of anywhere that does training and certification in the south east (Essex). Can travel if there is accommodation at reasonable rates available.
Firm I've been recommended have no space till September.

 

[Welderpaul]

Anyone know of anywhere that does training and certification in the south east (Essex). Can travel if there is accommodation at reasonable rates available.
Firm I've been recommended have no space till September.

See if you can get hold of the most popular Responsible Welding Coordinator in the area - they will probably do the tests themselves or know an outfit that can.

 

[Brad93]

I know a few firms that can do the testing, just no where that will do the training. If i just needed testing I'd go down to code a weld or get one of the mobile firms out to witness etc.

 

[welshboywelding]

i hope im not to late to attend this forum as the topic interests me greatly and is the reason i added the group. im 22 and weld mig. i weld along side my every day work but eventual want to go self enployed. My welding sector is agricultural welding anything from digger buckets to gates i was wondering what codes i require to be legal at what i do

 

[Brad93]

You don't need any codings to "legaly" weld up machinery. Usually your insurance will stipulate what they require you to have. Or the client.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

9606 is certainly like that, we do ours on 12.5mm which then covers 3mm to 25mm.

12.5 will cover you 3mm and above with no upper limit, if you do a multi run test that co ears for single and multi run.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

BS 9606 lasts for three years with a prolongation (that I can sign off for my welders) every six months. Our tests were all multi run on butts and fillets which covers single runs.
The previous BS 287 lasted two years.

After two years you can send off samples to your authorising body and get them renewed for a further two years.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

Anyone know of anywhere that does training and certification in the south east (Essex). Can travel if there is accommodation at reasonable rates available.
Firm I've been recommended have no space till September.

I work for a company that provides training and weld/procedure testing. We can come to your site or you can come to us. www.cdl-group.co.uk