Broken extractor?

[ukracer]

I've had luck with using small grinding stones for a die grinder (pointy or cone ones mostly) running in reverse in a drill press , some things have started to un-do this way , might be enough to get the broken extractor out and go back to drilling it through as much as possible before resorting to poky things to brake bits out of the hole.

Stu

edit , for the extractor you would run it in the forward direction whoops

That's why I said the problem was two fold.

 

[Ubique]

if your not great with a mig , cut a bit of copper pipe that fits in the hole to protect the sides , leave it a mm or two proud of the surface , then weld down through the center of the pipe ,, i dont do the nut thing , i do flat bar and drill a hole in it , weld it as if it was a washer , as its shallower its easier to weld , then use that bar as a spanner , give it all a tap or two on the weld , let it cool , weld the top again , let it cool a quick squirt of acf50 , and most things will turn out.

I like that idea - next time one of the filter-spinners breaks something, I'll give it a go

 

[Beanwood]

Can I ask a REALLY silly question....
I have the same situation on a scythe bar mower, that I haven't gotten around to fixing yet.
Liking th eodea of the Tig to heat it out, and I have an RTECH 180 Mig, that can 'adapt' to do some basic Tig, and a Tig torch that I bought in prep to have a go at Tig 'sometime' but I have no Argon.
Would it matter if I use Argon Mix - or would it just be a pretty poor weld that would do for the job in hand?

 

[JOEPRO]

You do not require TIG to extract broken bolts.

TIG would be nice. But it can be done with MIG with relative ease.

Trick is, clean the old bolt remains as best you can. I find that welding a washer on first followed by a nut works best. The heat from the weld also blasts into the bolt helping its removal.

 

[JOEPRO]

Those were also m6 bolts above. OP says M8 is what broke so that would be easier again to weld as there is more purchase for the weld.

 

[Beanwood]

You do not require TIG to extract broken bolts.

TIG would be nice. But it can be done with MIG with relative ease.

Trick is, clean the old bolt remains as best you can. I find that welding a washer on first followed by a nut works best. The heat from the weld also blasts into the bolt helping its removal.

That's brilliant - thanks @JOEPRO - I was assuming TIG allowed you to heat the area without piling on loads of wire?

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Mig will work fine...usually the bigger problem is access as it's usually the last bolt that breaks...in the worst place possible .

I like the washer idea as that protects the ali...I've used copper before but will try the washer next time.

 

[JOEPRO]

That's brilliant - thanks @JOEPRO - I was assuming TIG allowed you to heat the area without piling on loads of wire?

TIG gives more control for sure. But it's not required to extract m6 or m8 or upwards bolts IMO. Most people do it with MIG or Arc as that's what they have.

 

[MikeBs]

This question got way more responses than I expected. Thanks for all the input.
I have used mig and a nut for bolt removal before, the copper and washer seem a good idea. However previously I have always had the part on a bench, as mentioned by a few people, access is a problem and I don’t want to wave hot metal around by brake hoses, or risk splatter around a suspension strut. Hence my first and last attempt with a bolt extractor.
In the short term and to get the vehicle back on the road, I have made another bracket that uses a different bolt to support the brake line, but it’s a bit of a bodge.
Next weekend I will take the wheel off again and have another go with a Garryson burr that I have ordered. If it all goes to sh1t again, I may drill another hole in the casting and a corresponding hole in original bracket 10mm or so from the first one and have a go at tapping it. It will be another first, since I’ve never used a tap before?
This weekend I managed to change all the discs, pads and brake hoses on my car. I was really pleased that it had all gone well and it was probably that on the final bolt (really the last one) that needed to be removed, because none of the other bolts had given me any problems, I should have realised it was a bit stiff and applied AF50 and gone for a coffee before gently caressing it out!
I will update this next week after my adventures with a tap.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

access is a problem and I don’t want to wave hot metal around by brake hoses, or risk splatter around a suspension strut.

I just use lots of fire blankets (the cheap cooker ones)...cover everything in sight and just leave a small opening where the broken bolt is that needs welding. I was worried about fuel lines etc so this is the approach I came up with...worked OK for me.

 

[JOEPRO]

This question got way more responses than I expected. Thanks for all the input.
I have used mig and a nut for bolt removal before, the copper and washer seem a good idea. However previously I have always had the part on a bench, as mentioned by a few people, access is a problem and I don’t want to wave hot metal around by brake hoses, or risk splatter around a suspension strut. Hence my first and last attempt with a bolt extractor.
In the short term and to get the vehicle back on the road, I have made another bracket that uses a different bolt to support the brake line, but it’s a bit of a bodge.
Next weekend I will take the wheel off again and have another go with a Garryson burr that I have ordered. If it all goes to sh1t again, I may drill another hole in the casting and a corresponding hole in original bracket 10mm or so from the first one and have a go at tapping it. It will be another first, since I’ve never used a tap before?
This weekend I managed to change all the discs, pads and brake hoses on my car. I was really pleased that it had all gone well and it was probably that on the final bolt (really the last one) that needed to be removed, because none of the other bolts had given me any problems, I should have realised it was a bit stiff and applied AF50 and gone for a coffee before gently caressing it out!
I will update this next week after my adventures with a tap.

Wrap rubber brake hoses with aluminium foil.

But everything else in the wheel well will be just fine a few sparks for 20 seconds of mig welding is going to hurt nothing at all.

If your current plan involves the use of more extractors forget that! They will break like it did already. The welding will get it out for sure. It may take a couple of goes at it but the extreme heat and grip you get will get it out. As its an M8 bolt stuck in aluminium some dissimilar corrosion has likely occurred. Which really makes me believe weld is the only thing that will free it.

 

[sparkysy]

I had similar issues with a broken M10 bolt on the van, got an extraction bit snapped flush with the top just as it started to move. I managed to drill a 2mm hole next to the edge of the remains of the extractor then got a sharp punch and managed to tap it round with a hammer till enough was exposed that I could get the mole grips on it and have it out!
Don't know if you have enough meat left next to the extractor to try it, it may even loosen up the failed extractor.
Sy

 

[Ubique]

Ideally what you want is someone with a spark eroder - @premmington care to comment why you bought one?

 

[premmington]

Ideally what you want is someone with a spark eroder - @premmington care to comment why you bought one?

Seized injectors and bits of glowplugs left in cylinder heads - when we reconditioning engines - ideally you want one with a portable head to take to the stricken vehicle and do it situ (they exist I just have not got one). We use it for turbo's housing bolts and sometimes on old type diesel pumps. Snapped cam/crank bolts out of cam/crankshafts. And yes getting out broken easy outs and taps people have broken.

But to be honest I don't use it a lot - most broken studs/taps/easy outs - I can get out by welding (I always use 312 for this - be it TIG wire or MMA 312's).

I got a mill as well - this is the best drilling tool known to man - big table with a X and Y axis (drill press I can never start a hole in the middle of anything!)

I do tend to do allot of this type of extraction work for other garages - lorry/agri/plant fitters workshops. And I am doing more of it as the years roll on - I put this down to everybody using battery impact guns for everything. Even I am snapping more stuff myself - I am using a little 3/8" impact wrench on stuff I should be doing by hand. Plus a lot of automotive stuff now has stainless fixings.

Spark eroder is handy when someone has started drilling and gone off line - then aborted - you can get straight down the middle with the electrode.

I never declare a broken stuck anything impossible - I can't recall every being beaten.

I will make timesert things up on a lathe - TIG braze or weld holes up and drill/rethread - TIG alloy up and drill/rethread.

What I have noticed in the motortrade - nobody will ever go the next size bolt up - just oversize and retap. I don't know why? It is an obvious easy solution - lots of people don't get to...

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Oh... Can I add - the only thing I use easy outs for - or the better spiral ones - is to get broken bits of plastic out of housings - never for metal.

 

[Ubique]

Well that was a bigger response than I expected!
TBH, I do similar as 'side jobs', mainly to keep my eye in and make a bit of 'drinks money' but I already have a day job - a spark eroder is something on my list of 'things I want but will need to find a use for'...
There's money to be made from other people's Fcukups

 

[premmington]

Well that was a bigger response than I expected!
TBH, I do similar as 'side jobs', mainly to keep my eye in and make a bit of 'drinks money' but I already have a day job - a spark eroder is something on my list of 'things I want but will need to find a use for'...
There's money to be made from other people's Fcukups

Yes there is money to be made - I used to skim a lot of brake discs, drums and cylinder heads in the early days.

Now I only get solid flywheels to skim and broken stuff to extract.

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@tom2207 - I did like the "tip" above - about using flat bar with hole drilled in it to match the task at hand - for stud welding extraction - I had not thought of that - better than using a nut - if you got room to swing the bar to unthread something (learn something new every day kid).

I don't always use TIG for weld extraction - lot of the time I use MMA - but I always use 312's

 

[Ubique]

I've always used 316 but that's entirely due to that's what I had to hand the first time I had to extract an extractor - it worked so I saw no reason to change.
MMA would be far easier to fill a nut with but I prefer getting the initial bond with TIG

 

[premmington]

I've always used 316 but that's entirely due to that's what I had to hand the first time I had to extract an extractor - it worked so I saw no reason to change.
MMA would be far easier to fill a nut with but I prefer getting the initial bond with TIG

Thing with an MMA rod is - you only need one hand - you can bend a rod up and get it anywhere in situ on a vehicle - even by bending you loose the coating on the bit you bend - you only need a little bit of the top of the rod to bond a nut to something.

312 or 309L is what you need. I just buy in boxes of 2.5mm and 3.2mm Elga Cromarods - as they will work on low voltage AC sets and well as high OCV DC sets

 

[Ubique]

Cheers, I'll give 'em a go!

 

[MikeBs]

Just to finish this thread.
I managed to get my car in the garage and have access to the offending corner. I normally work on the drive as once the car is in the garage there is no space to remove a wheel.
However at least I was in the dry and could get a good view with an inspection light.
My first thought was to try and get a 2mm drill down the side of the broken extractor, so I managed to grind a small concave with a Dremel to stop the drill skidding. Once I’d got this all the way through the bolt, I did it again a little further around the stuck extractor.
I could now see the end of the extractor was free on one side and decided to see if I could tap it sideways so I could get a pair of needle nose pliers on it.
As I tapped the end of the extractor, it, along with the bolt went into the casting and dropped out the bottom.
With lots of brake cleaner and a big magnet, I got all the shards of metal out and slowly put a new M8 in to confirm the original threads are all OK.
It’s always nice to get a bit of good luck now and then. I’m glad the end had no drama.
The burr was not needed and have confirmed it can be returned for a refund.
Thanks for the comments, I think I was in a bad place when the extractor broke and just wanted to tell someone and share my pain.