between the Lorch T220 & Mastertig 230

[munkay]

Hi matt,

I do understand what you are saying, however, I don't consider the length of warranty to be directly proportional to build/design quality of a product, a rough indicator maybe but not an absolute. For that and the reasons outlined in my previous post, I don't consider an additional 12 months of warranty to be significant enough to be a major consideration.

Being designed to withstand a 60cm drop test suggests the product is of good, solid mechanical design but as mentioned in my previous post, due to my expected usage, high impact resistance is not a high priority for me and the mechanical strength of the design should have no affect on the reliability of the machine for me.

Different people have different needs and will place differing levels of importance on the various aspects, characteristics and features of a product.

 

[DANTHEMAN1]

Yes, Kemppi's ACX panel definitely has the 'busier' look about it in comparison to Lorch's Control Pro panel. I couldn't say for sure as I've yet to prod the Lorch machine but, if I'm understanding the user manual correctly, it suggests (to me at least) that Kemppi's ACX panel probably has the edge in terms of ease of use.

have you looked at one of these simple to use


http://www.lincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.aspx?p=112596

just paid over "£2k for mine ex demo unit purchased in ayrshire as well

 

[matt1978]

Hi Munkay,

If you wanted a simpler front panel, you could also buy the T series in a "basic plus" version.

It's layout is very easy to use but it still has AC Balance, AC Frequency adjust and Pulse up to 2khz.

 

[munkay]

have you looked at one of these simple to use


http://www.lincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.aspx?p=112596

just paid over "£2k for mine ex demo unit purchased in ayrshire as well

I did speak to my local Lincoln Electric dealer, they were supposed to send through some additional information but they never did. One feature I'm looking for in the machine is mixed TIG (what Kemppi call 'MIX' and Lorch call 'MACS'), I don't think the Lincoln Electric machine has such a feature?

 

[munkay]

Hi Munkay,

If you wanted a simpler front panel, you could also buy the T series in a "basic plus" version.

It's layout is very easy to use but it still has AC Balance, AC Frequency adjust and Pulse up to 2khz.

Hi Matt,

It's not that I'm bewildered by the number of functions/features available or the number of adjustable parameters. When I say "ease of use" I'm talking more in reference to the logic/design of the user interface (control panel).

There are a few areas of the Lorch Control Pro panel where the logic does not make much sense to me.

For example, Lorch have decided to group ignition type together with current type under a single mode selection button. This to me seems that it would require a lot of unnecessary button pushing to cycle through the various combinations to get the one you want? My personal preference would be to have the ignition type on it's own separate button (a simple on/off toggle) leaving the existing mode selection button to deal solely with current type.

There is a similar scenario with the other selection button (process selection), grouping torch trigger and process type under one button.

I'm sure there is a debate there for these selections not typically requiring changing every few minutes so it makes little difference, I just think that the current implementation doesn't appear to be the most logical or elegant solution.

As another example, enabling MACS and working/adjusting it's parameters seems incredibly cumbersome. I'd guess that the decision to add MACS came quite late in initial design/development of the product as it appears to be shoehorned in there, either that or perhaps they are thinking by making it difficult to enable it would avoid the feature being accidentally enabled?

If the ignition and current selection were split as described above then there would be potential to allow MACS to be enabled by a simply long pressing (press and hold) of the current selection button, once enabled, short pressing the current selection could simply toggle between MACS- and MACS+, a further long press would disable MACS and return you to the more standard current selection types.

I'd also move the MACS parameters from the secondary to main parameter menu and perhaps only have them displayed/available when MACS was enabled.

There are a few other areas also, but these are just some examples. I'm not sure if the above makes an sense to you so I have attached a couple of images (hopefully you can view .png files) of panel mockups I put together which will hopefully add some clarity if needed.

 

[astro_al]

Munkay, having lived with the 220 for a while now, I have to say I don't agree with your comments on useability. I like the logical construction of the parameter menu, which essentially takes you through the setup in a logical sequence for each job. I also think you're over egging the pudding regarding the ignition and current type selection. You probably spent more time typing your post than separating out the two functions would ever save you. It keeps the panel clean and simple too. And in all honesty, who is changing from ali to steel to stainless etc every 30 seconds anyway, setting up of the torch consumables is by far the major factor in the time taken to start welding.

Al.

 

[munkay]

I also think you're over egging the pudding regarding the ignition and current type selection. You probably spent more time typing your post than separating out the two functions would ever save you. It keeps the panel clean and simple too. And in all honesty, who is changing from ali to steel to stainless etc every 30 seconds anyway, setting up of the torch consumables is by far the major factor in the time taken to start welding.

I'm sure there is a debate there for these selections not typically requiring changing every few minutes so it makes little difference, I just think that the current implementation doesn't appear to be the most logical or elegant solution.

astro_al, You should note that have already acknowledged your point as being a potential source of debate within my initial post. It was not my intention to push this particular issue forward with an impression that it is a major problem.

I didn't want to simply say "Some areas of the panel don't make much sense to me" and leave it at that without qualifying my thinking with some additional reasoning.

 

[Drains]

munkay, the Lorch panel is pretty straightforward. Combining ignition and current type together isn't a problem.
As for MACS, secondary is fine for that - it's a parameter you can expect to use once in a blue moon - we have a requirement for it welding aluminium bronze to EN19 - something that can theoretically be done on AC or DC but is very reliable on and AC/DC mix. MACS is very useful but only if you need it. If you get my drift.

Anyways, what you can always do with the more obscure settings is save them, which makes things more straightforward.

Given the small size of the welder it would be difficult to fit many more knobs and buttons onto the facia. There is a lot packed into that panel and it works well. It doesn't take long to set up, but I do like to keep the instruction manual handy to remind myself how to change the more obscure parameters as it's only very occasionally that I need to (so I forget how).

 

[hotrodder]

I did speak to my local Lincoln Electric dealer, they were supposed to send through some additional information but they never did. One feature I'm looking for in the machine is mixed TIG (what Kemppi call 'MIX' and Lorch call 'MACS'), I don't think the Lincoln Electric machine has such a feature?

It doesn't and from what you've said about panel layout i doubt you'd like the way many of the less commonly adjusted parameters are accessed on it either. There's a choice of 3 AC waveforms and like arc starting parameters, preflow time, HF/lift start and some others they are in a 'hidden' menu that can only be reached during start up and requires a cheat sheet (or the manual) to navigate unless you've got a photographic memory

 

[Shox Dr]

There's a lot to be said for analog dials, where you can at a glance see there everything is set at. I liked my old R-tech machine for that.

 

[munkay]

munkay, the Lorch panel is pretty straightforward. Combining ignition and current type together isn't a problem.
As for MACS, secondary is fine for that - it's a parameter you can expect to use once in a blue moon - we have a requirement for it welding aluminium bronze to EN19 - something that can theoretically be done on AC or DC but is very reliable on and AC/DC mix. MACS is very useful but only if you need it. If you get my drift.

Anyways, what you can always do with the more obscure settings is save them, which makes things more straightforward.

Given the small size of the welder it would be difficult to fit many more knobs and buttons onto the facia. There is a lot packed into that panel and it works well. It doesn't take long to set up, but I do like to keep the instruction manual handy to remind myself how to change the more obscure parameters as it's only very occasionally that I need to (so I forget how).

Drains,

Thanks for you thoughts, they are appreciated.

I think one problem I have, which is entirely down to me, is that I seem to have some weird OCD type tendencies when it comes to welding. For what ever reason I seem to want to sanity check all parameter values before hitting the trigger or stamping on the pedal.

It's not quite to the extreme of needing to go over and check all values every time I strike an arc. But, if I walk away and come back to the machine I am compelled to sanity check everything, even if I know there is no one else around that may have touched the machine. Even if I store parameters in memory as a job, every time I recall a job I'm going to want to sanity check the values.

Therefore, ease of use, in terms of accessing/adjusting all parameters is important to me. Most of these digital are fairly straight forward when it comes to the more common parameters but, as you say, accessing some of the more advanced/obscure feature parameters can be tricky.

Perhaps I should just stick to machines with a load of dials on the panel, these definitely make it easier for me to get a good overview of the parameters at a glance.

 

[munkay]

It doesn't and from what you've said about panel layout i doubt you'd like the way many of the less commonly adjusted parameters are accessed on it either. There's a choice of 3 AC waveforms and like arc starting parameters, preflow time, HF/lift start and some others they are in a 'hidden' menu that can only be reached during start up and requires a cheat sheet (or the manual) to navigate unless you've got a photographic memory

Thanks for the clarification hotrodder, from what you say, it doesn't sound like a machine that would float my boat.

There's a lot to be said for analog dials, where you can at a glance see there everything is set at. I liked my old R-tech machine for that.

I'd agree with that.

 

[Drains]

I think one problem I have, which is entirely down to me, is that I seem to have some weird OCD type tendencies when it comes to welding. For what ever reason I seem to want to sanity check all parameter values before hitting the trigger or stamping on the pedal.

I'm sure that's perfectly reasonable! I sort of do the same - except some parameters I would avoid changing (pre/post flow, base setting on pulse etc), but always worth a quick flick through to check frequency, ac+/- bias and tungsten size for instance. Easy to do pressing the top left or right arrow - swings you through the lot in seconds - more-or-less as quick as you can check the dials of an analogue panel.

The factory-set parameters and percentages are pretty good so most things you just don't need to change - the ones listed above I like to mess with, but it's really not necessary most of the time (it's just fiddling). If in doubt, a factory re-set saves a lot of bother and gives you the fun of cocking it all up again.

 

[hotrodder]

Similar deal for the commonly adjusted stuff on the v205-t... keep pressing the parameter button and it scrolls through initial amps, slope up time, welding, pulse parameters (if the pulse button is lit), slope down, finish amps and post flow. Hold the parameter down for a couple of seconds and it'll display AC Hz, press again for AC balance and then you're back at the beginning. Just a minor PITA if you want to adjust something in the set up menu.

There's normally something i dislike in the layout/logic of most kit, hidden menus aside soon becomes second nature and gets forgotten about though

 

[matt1978]

Hi Munkay, thanks for your feedback its always nice to hear how things can possibly be improved. There are a few points though........

Have you actually used the machine or imagining how it might be from reading the user manual. The reason I ask is because of your comments about the Ignition/Process selection being on the same button. In real time it takes less than 2 or 3 seconds to select what you want. It's on a cycled loop, so you can choose Dc no hf, ac no hf, dc with hf and ac with hf, then back to dc no hf again in 4 button pushes , But if you only look at a picture it looks a little more long winded than that because you have a symbol of dc+, but this is not enabled in tig mode, you can only access this in mma mode.

Also,I can assure that macs or any other feature of the machine was not shoehorned in at the last minute, new machines are usually in development for at least 2 yrs prior to finalisation. During the development stage at least 3 or 4 front panel possibilities are put out into the market in Germany for evaluation and the final design is a direct result of the particular design that received the best feedback and tweaked based on the information gained by the field tests. Another good indicator is prior to launch is that we work very closely with a number of design university's in Germany and they get a number of people who have never used a welding machine before and ask them to make simple selections on the machine after only receiving the most basic of instruction.

It's important to remember that most new machines on the market today are making more and more of the changes on behalf of the user. This is because people actually learning to weld in a formal way is reducing in Europe so the idea is a lot of the skill required for setting up is based in the machine rather than in the welder him/herself. That's why all of our machines have a 3 step to weld logic.

If you wasn't a skilled welder and had no idea of what upslope/downslope or post even was, let alone when should be changed which machine type would you find less daunting? One with about 10 or so knobs and 3 or 4 buttons to change every single parameter or one with 1 knob and 4 buttons( bearing in mind, that even if one of the knobs is in the wrong position it could cause massive problems for someone who doesn't know much about welding). This fundamental design is not unique to lorch, infact I don't think you can even buy a machine made in Europe or America from a well known manufacturer that still has a front panel designed with a potentiometer on the front panel for every parameter. I agree however that this might not suit everyone but it certainly suits most and as a manufacturer I guess that's all you can do.

The other reason of course, is down to physical size of the front panel and the fact you are comparing analogue to digital technology and that a whole other debate

If you personally would feel more comfortable and better suited to one of the Chinese types mentioned then I would seriously take some time to evaluate one because you could save yourself a significant amount of money, but of you do opt for a Lorch I would be happy to give you some user training ( and welder training if required) on the machine at our place in Cannock if you ever wanted it.

Good luck with what ever you choose anyway

 

[Rick]

I've got a T220 in daily use for 2 years now. Never missed a beat, one little niggle I had was rectified with replacement parts been sent straight out. (it was only a crack in the front panel probably from my heavy handed use) in no way did it stop me welding.

Awesome machine, don't think it has as many settings as other machines, (bells and whistles type stuff) but it certainly gets the job done and the job store memory is a neat feature.

 

[munkay]

Hi Matt,

I did manage to get some time with a machine briefly last week but it was brief, admittedly I have not had enough time to explore the machine properly. My local dealer tells me they should have a demo machine available at some point next week so hopefully that will change soon.

My comments regarding the ignition and current type being on the same button was something I had noted previously from reading the user manual but was in reference to my brief time with the machine. Basically if the machine were set for AC with HF and you wanted to get to DCEN with HF, you had to cycle through the 'no HF' combinations first. Unless there is a way to reverse the selection cycle that I missed?

I don't doubt that manufacturers such as Lorch have long and intensive product development cycles.

I understand what you are saying regarding more people coming into welding through other routes rather than formal training and I can imagine it's not easy to develop a machine that is both easy to use for new/inexperienced users while still being flexible/powerful enough for those with more experience. I think the reality is that ease of use or usability is a subjective thing, it's very much a personal preference.

Slightly off topic but as you mentioned alternative machines of the cheaper variety. I made an active decision recently that while I'm in the position to do so (i.e. funds permitting) that I will only purchase products from manufacturers that I believe to have true R&D departments, driving innovation etc.. and to have a (at least a perceived) level of quality. This decision puts the majority (if not all) off the cheaper alternatives of dubious origin out of the equation.

 

[Llundberg]

I would think that american brands have a fair way to go before they can compete with european quality brands such as Kemppi, Lorch, EWM, Fronius,etc, etc. I have a US made MIG and while OK, it feels a bit bubblegum compared to the euro made bits. That syndrome isn't unique to welders BTW (cars anyone?).

Just my opinion.