Bead roller dies

[droopsnoot]

If I wanted to make some bead roller dies, would they need to be hardened? As there's no impact involved, would that be necessary?

I'm a bit annoyed - a couple of weeks ago I was looking on eBay to see what's around in the form of dies, and there was a listing for someone was was making custom ones at what seemed like a reasonable price. Now, of course, I can't find it anywhere, so either they've given up, or too busy.

 

[Wallace]

My cheapies are not heat treated, mind you they're not even concentric! If you were using them daily then yes they would fare better being hardened.

 

[Dcal]

The ones I made are not heat treated, I don't even know what grade steel they are made of (old anchor wall tie-bars) but they have been fine.

 

[Agroshield]

Probably not necessary to harden them as long as you make them out of some decent steel.

Something that is tough and can be finished to a good polish.

What diameter roughly are they?

Something like a truck halfshaft, a car driveshaft or even a large 8.8/10.8/12.9/14.9 bolt would be good material.

 

[Brad93]

Make them from EN24 or tool steel

 

[droopsnoot]

Cheers everyone. I don't have the facilities to make them myself unfortunately, it was just a conversation I was having with someone the other day, as I'd presumed they would be hardened in some way. I bought a pair of dies to do a particular size rib, but I get a lot of marks on the lower one, and I think it's because it's this shape:

As you see, the lower die (at the top of the photo) has square edges, which leads to a scrape mark along the edge of the rib, which in turn highlights when each roll isn't in quite the same place. I wondered if having a lower die that's closer to the shape of the upper one would get rid of that issue. The "stuff" on that die is where I tried covering it with a section of old bicycle inner tube, but that lasted about as long as you might expect.

 

[Dcal]

I would expect the bottom roller would have a good go at cutting the metal you are trying to put the bead into.
What sort of bead are you trying to form?
Does it need to be offset?
The ones you have don't look like a pair.

Have you dimensions, it looks similar to ones I have but thet might be too small.

 

[droopsnoot]

I'm trying to roll a bead in a floor pan, I think off the top of my head it's about an inch wide, roughly a semi-circular shape. They were bought as a pair, I suspect it might just be that the photo isn't all that good, they do line up when they're on the machine. I'm not sure what you mean by offset, it's just a normal semi-circular stiffening rib. I do get some quite deep marks, as they're on the bottom of the panel it's not the end of the world as it'll be stonechipped when on the car, but I'd rather not have them there if I can avoid it.

Centre hole I think is 22mm, but I'd have to measure the rest to be certain of anything. I did ask the seller when I bought these whether the lower one shouldn't just be the negative of the upper one, as the dies that came with the roller are, but I can't remember what he said - it sounded plausible at the time, based on me only having used a bead roller a couple of times. And I was that pleased that I'd found someone selling the right width die that I didn't question it too much - the ones that came with the roller aren't wide enough.

I actually took the photo with the intention of getting in touch with the chap on eBay to see if he'd make me just a lower one without the sharp edges, or failing that, to send him a piece of floor and have a custom pair done to roll that specific shape. I think it was about £50 a pair, so a little frustrating that I can't find him again.

The "normal" way would be to use this as an excuse to buy a lathe, learn how to use it, so I can make my own up, but that seems a little over the top and I've got a bit of shed fullness anxiety going on at the mometn.

 

[500e]

Rollers have good finishes, if the edge if lower roller is to hard you should be able to find a friend to turn a slight radius on them,
What is in the lower corners of the die
And Shed fullness is a figment of your imagination best get it treated & fast.

 

[droopsnoot]

500e, the lower corners of the die are just the remnants of the bicycle inner tube I tried stretching over it to see if it would reduce the marks. Given that the edge is making marks in mild steel, of course the rubber inner tube was never going to do any good.

I should really have taken ten seconds to cut those bits out before taking the photo, but it was one of those last-minute things before leaving the shed.

 

[Slowcoach]

Just robbed a few images. Might help.

 

[Dcal]

Biggest I have is 1/2 inch bead but it has a male and female profiles (like the 19 round bead rolls above.)
I'll run a bead after work and post what it looks like.
If you break the edges of your square edge bead roll it might work ok.

Link below to a video of a guy using washers to do the same thing.
It's a very long watch for what it is.
I didn't make it to the end but you get the idea.

 

[Agroshield]

Just robbed a few images. Might help.

View attachment 256909 View attachment 256910

If you look at the lower image, there is commonality between all those labelled 'swage' in that the female is sharp-edged and the male does not reach the bottom of the female. However, those labelled 'round bead' are a matched pair and male and female can touch on the full profile.

In the picture of Mr droopsnoot's ones, there is a witness mark in the centre of the female, suggesting that male and female can and do touch, which is different to the others and possibly incorrect. So maybe the two outer diameters of the female need sleeving up bigger so the centre cannot touch when they are closed.

The two sets look to form the metal in different ways - much as when using a press you have air bending and bending against a bottom die.

 

[droopsnoot]

Some good points there. I didn't think it was bottoming out, but then there clearly is a mark there, so it must be. I did think that the female die should have been the same shape as the male one, give or take a little. And thanks for the video link, I'll have a watch of that in a bit.

I was looking for suitable washers for various reasons, but didn't locate anything all that useful in the small number of places I looked. The main one was that the "step" dies on mine both have vertical edges, and in a lot of places I don't want a vertical edge to the step. I can just use the grub screw to hold one die away from the other, but it's not all that accurate and a number of spacers to get it in the right place would be more use. A piece of 22mm id tube would do it, I just don't want to get any from a steel stockholder as I don't really want a load of it.

 

[Dcal]

Ran a bead with the biggest I have.
Sanded the paint off a bit of scrap to show any marring.






The rolls don't bottom out so a square lower roll shouldn't make any difference.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

I didn't make it to the end but you get the idea.

I gave up watching because of his constant sniffing.

 

[Dcal]

Doesn't look like a coke head but you never know

 

[droopsnoot]

Cheers @Dcal. I'm trying to reproduce a factory panel as close as I can, hence the need for the 1" bead. The marking I'm getting isn't where the male die bottoms out, it's down either side of the bead where the square shoulder digs into the metal. I will try to remember to take a photo. Getting my existing die rounded off might work, but I'm always reluctant to start messing with something that currently does the job, albeit a bit messily, if I have the option of getting another made at a reasonable cost. Just because if I make a mess of the alterations, I've gone from a messy job to no job at all.

I also tried to watch that video, but started struggling quite early on. I'm sure there's something key that I missed, but I've got a saved copy so I can just watch again if I need to. A handy technique, though, and another advantage of just being able to turn these things up when needed. I quite liked his motorised bead roller, but that really was the solution for someone who has massive amounts of spare room - I don't even have the space to leave mine set up all the time, I lift it into a vice every time I need it. Invariably I then need the vice for something else.

 

[hotponyshoes]

You can buy blank dies, just a bit of round with the key way cut.
Mount it on the machine, set it running at full speed and shape out whatever you want with a flap disc/sander/file/polish

If you have a lathe it will be a lot quicker.
If it costs a lot for a blank and takes hours to make then I would spend the extra and get it hardened.
If it's a tenner for the blank and 20mins to knock it up leave it as it is and make another when it wears out.

 

[droopsnoot]

You can buy blank dies, just a bit of round with the key way cut.
Mount it on the machine, set it running at full speed and shape out whatever you want with a flap disc/sander/file/polish

I have seen blanks available from one supplier, but I think they're the wrong size. My bead roller is hand-cranked, so "full speed" isn't really all that quick, and I can't hold a file while I'm cranking it.