Argon gas bad for health?

[Rick]

How bad is it to weld with argon in a single garage (door open) without a gas mask?

if i should use a mask any suggestions on type etc?

Many thanks.

 

[shenion]

Argon is inert and non poisonous. There is no need to worry about the gas.

 

[marknotgeorge]

Argon is an inert gas, so isn't harmful in itself. However, it is an asphyxiant, which means it will, in sufficient concentration, displace the oxygen in the air, which will kill you. All you have to do is ensure that it can't concentrate. Habing the garage door open would be fine, as well as making sure your cylinder doesn't leak.

 

[Rick]

Argon is an inert gas, so isn't harmful in itself. However, it is an asphyxiant, which means it will, in sufficient concentration, displace the oxygen in the air, which will kill you. All you have to do is ensure that it can't concentrate. Habing the garage door open would be fine, as well as making sure your cylinder doesn't leak.

Somebody probably got there wires crossed a little then, should be fine i guess.

 

[Luke]

There is no need to worry about the gas.

Unless you're stuck in the middle of a lot of it!

 

[fingers99]

You'll be fine. Don't leave the garage doors open or you'll create a draft, wreck the weld and all the local kids will come round and get arc eye. You've got to do a hell of a lot of welding (or have a leaking cylinder) for enough gas to concentrate to do you any harm. Open the doors, if you like, pre and post welding.

You sure you don't mean acetylene (which is mildly poisonous)?

 

[steve nunn]

There some truth in these posts, youll be fine welding with it, but yes it does displace air.

Argon is a heavier than air gas, which means when it gets into your lungs, it sits at the bottom of your lungs and isnt exhaled. The more argon you breath in, the more your lungs fill with it, until there isnt any room left in your lungs for the air that they need.

So there is truth in the old wives tales of holding welders up by there feet to get the argon out of their lungs if they have breathed it in. However best way is just not to breath it in in the first place. But it is inert and wont poison you, just your body isnt tooo keen on having it in your lungs.

Steve

 

[shenion]

There some truth in these posts, youll be fine welding with it, but yes it does displace air.

Argon is a heavier than air gas, which means when it gets into your lungs, it sits at the bottom of your lungs and isnt exhaled. The more argon you breath in, the more your lungs fill with it, until there isnt any room left in your lungs for the air that they need.

So there is truth in the old wives tales of holding welders up by there feet to get the argon out of their lungs if they have breathed it in. However best way is just not to breath it in in the first place. But it is inert and wont poison you, just your body isnt tooo keen on having it in your lungs.

Steve

If that was true we would all die.

Up to 1% of air is argon, neon, xenon and other noble gases. Argon is relatively cheap as they can distill enough out of the air. No need to use exotic methods (like getting helium from deep natural gas wells.)

Argon will diffuse in air easily. It will not settle out on its own, if so, on a calm day anyone in a valley would suffer "argon asphyxiation".

BTW, CO2 is 1.5 times the weight of air. We expell CO2 through our lungs. Argon is 1.38 times as heavy as air.

 

[matt1978]

There have been cases of welders dieing, whilst welding at the bottom of a enclosed tank, it is now the law in most European countries that they must have oxygen meters fitted aswell as having a "spotter" to keep watch.

I would say that there is next to no risk welding in a well ventilated garage, but its handy for people to know of the potential risks, however remote.

 

[shenion]

You feed any gas other than air, argon, nitrogen, CO2 whatever into a enclosed space and it will replace all the air.

It had nothing to do with the weight of the gas, more the risks of working in an enclosed space. With no ventilation, they will asphyxiate from lack of air and too much CO2 with no need for another gas.

 

[steve nunn]

I think the operative word here is diffused in air. Argon is heavier than air and if you breath it in, it will sink to the bottom of your lungs and fill your lungs.

 

[steve nunn]

You feed any gas other than air, argon, nitrogen, CO2 whatever into a enclosed space and it will replace all the air.

It had nothing to do with the weight of the gas, more the risks of working in an enclosed space. With no ventilation, they will asphyxiate from lack of air and too much CO2 with no need for another gas.

Ok, then what happens if its helium? You cant breath that. But that wouldnt stay in an enclosed space that was open to the top. Argon would, and yes it has evertything to do with the gas being heavier than air.

 

[shenion]

I think the operative word here is diffused in air. Argon is heavier than air and if you breath it in, it will sink to the bottom of your lungs and fill your lungs.

The CO2 that is about 8% of what is in the air we breathe out is heavier than argon. As our bodies release CO2, we would all asphyxiate if that was true.

 

[fingers99]

You feed any gas other than air, argon, nitrogen, CO2 whatever into a enclosed space and it will replace all the air.

It had nothing to do with the weight of the gas, more the risks of working in an enclosed space. With no ventilation, they will asphyxiate from lack of air and too much CO2 with no need for another gas.

Yep. Solvents in an enclosed space often present a greater risk, because the worker tends to get smashed and incapable of getting out. I once had to kick someone out of a tank at Longbridge.................

 

[steve nunn]

Shenion, Ive read a lot fo your posts and got a lot of good advice from you, but you are wrong on this one.

Air compostion
Air Composition


The sea-level composition of air (in percent by volume at the temperature of 15°C and the pressure of 101325 Pa) is given below.


Name Symbol Percent by Volume
Nitrogen N2 78.084 %

Oxygen O2 20.9476 %

Argon Ar 0.934 %

Carbon Dioxide CO2 0.0314 %

Neon Ne 0.001818 %

Methane CH4 0.0002 %

Helium He 0.000524 %

Krypton Kr 0.000114 %

Hydrogen H2 0.00005 %

Xenon Xe 0.0000087 %


CO2 isnt 8% of what we breath. I look after the safety for the one of the buildings at a nuclear reporocessing plant where irraditaed magnox nuclear fuel is dry stored in a building that is wholly filled with argon gas as it is inert. So we get quite a bit of training on argon and the problems it causes.

Argon if breathed in your lungs will sink and you will not breath it out. Breath enough in, and it will fill your lungs, and you will not breath it out. Air is a mixture of gases and unless something is done to change its state will on the whole stay the same composition and will not separate, argon out of a bottle is a pure gas and is a heavy gas and will slowly fill your lungs if you breath enough of it.

 

[shenion]

Ok, then what happens if its helium? You cant breath that. But that wouldnt stay in an enclosed space that was open to the top. Argon would, and yes it has evertything to do with the gas being heavier than air.

Helium is different it is 1/8th the weight of the major air components.

Like I said, air already has CO2 that is heavier than argon. If it was an issue being heavier it would cause problems.

Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, and Argon all have a specific gravity between 0.97 and 1.5 , so they mix and dont separate as heat will keep it mixed. Read the BOC and and other sites on how they separate air. They need to get it down to cryogenic temperatures for it to separate.

Helium is different as it has a specific gravity of 0.138. Same for solvents that will likely have 5-10x the specific gravity of air.

Gas - specific gravity
Argon - 1.38
CO2 - 1.5
Oxygen - 1.1044
Nitrogen - 0.9723
Helium - 0.138

 

[steve nunn]

Ok, if yuo say so, but have a look at page 8 of this

http://www.praxair.com/praxair.nsf/0/d03e8b4aa7b2958785256a86008095f7/$FILE/p4563h.pdf

under chronic.

Steve

 

[steve nunn]

and heres a bit more info as well

http://www.boccryospeed.co.uk/cryospeed/products/product_data/liquid_argon/index.asp


As you said, to get the argon to separate out of the air structure, you need to use cryogenic seperation to do it. so air will stay as air unless it is very very cold. Argon is out of a bottle isnt, its is already sperated. Sorry but you are wrong on this one.
steve

 

[shenion]

Nothing in there about it being heavier than air causing problems. The asphyxiation is from the air being replaced with another gas.

BTW, divers have used Argon/O2 mixes with no problems. It was tried in decompression chambers. It is not used as it did not have the effects they wanted but was not poisonous.

A tank of noitrogen has the same effect ehwn released. It will replace the air. You will have the same ill effects with nitrogen that is 78% of air.

My 8% CO2 was what we breathe out, not what is in air, yes that is less than 1%. As it is even heavier than argon, the is settling issue would cause even more of a probalme than argon.

 

[steve nunn]

Divers dont use argon at all, its is a very rare gas to use indiving because of tis properties as a narcotic under pressure - not good at depth. They use helium O2 mixes, or tri mix (which is helium, niitrogen and O2) in the main

I was a commercial diver for 9 years on the pipelines.

Once argon is mixed with oxygen (done under pressure which probably helps the mixing process as well) it has to be seperated for it to become stuck in your lungs, same as air stays as air unless it is altered by the cold. Pure argon gas will stay in your lungs and you cannot breath it out.

As you said, for air to be seprated it needs cryogenics to separate it into its constituent parts, it will not seprate in yuor lungs or in an enclosed space without the crygoenics. Pure argon out of a bottle will settle in your lungs.

You are wrong.