Please read my previous post. I made it crystal clear that I would NOT compare a £2500 Lorch with a £29 arc welder from Aldi. I meant performance wise. So why did you say or imply that I said the opposite, only so you could tell me to stop? Stop what? Putting forward photos which show just what the cheap arc welders can do. And what Shenion and others have achieved. Such evidence will dent the arguments of those of say it's impossible but that would be censorship. I'm not saying it's easy or the best choice for anyone who wants to take delivery of a welder and complete their car bodywork repairs the next weekend. For them a MIG welder will almost certainly be easier but it will also be more expensive, especially for gas, and there's a lot more to go wrong, e.g. with wire feed issues on any MIG.
- Thread starter GeorgeB
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Please read my previous post. I made it crystal clear that I would NOT compare a £2500 Lorch with a £29 arc welder from Aldi. I meant performance wise. So why did you say or imply that I said the opposite, only so you could tell me to stop? Stop what? Putting forward photos which show just what the cheap arc welders can do. And what Shenion and others have achieved. Such evidence will dent the arguments of those of say it's impossible but that would be censorship. I'm not saying it's easy or the best choice for anyone who wants to take delivery of a welder and complete their car bodywork repairs the next weekend. For them a MIG welder will almost certainly be easier but it will also be more expensive, especially for gas, and there's a lot more to go wrong, e.g. with wire feed issues on any MIG.
Why is it it unacceptable? I welcomed the new member. I AM sure he's genuine. I think I was polite in my response but I put forward a few counter-arguments to his very harsh criticisms of the Aldi welder in his very first post. I wish someone would post images of the insides of an Aldi arc welder but I find it incredible that three or more units should prove faulty. The new member didn't waste any time in listing fault after fault. I responded. What's wrong with that?
Also, pro-am debates are a bit difficult. I am talking about amateur needs only. I wouldn't dream of questionning your choice of kit as a professional. But in many fields, in my opinion, a professional cannot fully understand the needs of an amateur so they may not be the best people to give advice.
English Steve
Senior Bumpkin
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On the resale value argument ... I have a Portamig 185 which I bought earlier this year from Weldequip. The first job I did with it paid for the machine fully, and since then it has earned me somewhere in the region of 6 times it's initial cost (I only use it in my part-time work). So, if I gave it away today (which I won't so don't ask 
) I am still well in pocket. If I had bought a cheapo machine at the start, experience tells me it would not have done the first job so I would have lost money.
I know not everyone is buying machines to make money, but how many of you have heard "oh, you can weld, would you just fix this for me?", and things can develop from there. Buy cheap = buy twice in my humble opinion and experience.
Reminds me of when I was competing in motocross - the arguments then generally centred around cheap versus expensive crash helmets. The best reasoning I heard was quite simple - "If you've got a £10 head, wear a £10 hat" - The same could be applied to auto weld helmets
I'm rambling now so I'd better get back to work ...
Edit - I am an amateur welder and professional Engineer - time served, so you can decide for yourselves whether my opinion is valid.
) I am still well in pocket. If I had bought a cheapo machine at the start, experience tells me it would not have done the first job so I would have lost money.I know not everyone is buying machines to make money, but how many of you have heard "oh, you can weld, would you just fix this for me?", and things can develop from there. Buy cheap = buy twice in my humble opinion and experience.
Reminds me of when I was competing in motocross - the arguments then generally centred around cheap versus expensive crash helmets. The best reasoning I heard was quite simple - "If you've got a £10 head, wear a £10 hat" - The same could be applied to auto weld helmets
I'm rambling now so I'd better get back to work ...
Edit - I am an amateur welder and professional Engineer - time served, so you can decide for yourselves whether my opinion is valid.
I really can't help but laughing, George. You seem totally convinced that there's some great conspiracy here whereby we're all plotting to convince people to buy "more expensive" MIGs over arc welders!
The very great majority of regular members of this forum are either people like me with a reasonable amount of welding experience or people like Simon and Snowy who are fully paid up pros with years of experience. None of us benefit in any way from recommending a particular brand or, even less so, a particular welding process. There are a few others who are dealers on are associated with certain brands of welder and, as such, have a vested interest in their products. However, though they may make sales as a consequence, the majority of their posts are helpful and informative and nothing to do with business. Malcolm's pretty fierce on dealers posting to the forums so I'm sure if this ever ceased to be the case the situation would have to be addressed, but I'm confident the need will never arise.
I say all the above in the hope of clarifying why none of us have an agenda to push.
I've noticed you've got a bit het up on the issue of Clarke's good name on the forum. I'm guessing you feel that your £19 welder would have received a better welcome had it been a Clarke one? Well I'm afraid I can't remember a single instance where a Clarke arc welder has been recommended though, as you have ascertained, their MIGs have a good reputation.
Assuming here that there is no secret plan to rid the world of arc welders, why do you think that MIGs are so oft suggested? I'll answer for you; because they are the tried and tested method of car repair. As has been said before, arc has it's place, but it is not on thin sheet. You say '[arc] may not be the best choice.....' but really, it's no choice at all unless you want to spend hours trying to fill in the holes you're blowing. There's nothing wrong with trying, and I really do applaud your efforts to try and get arc going satisfactorily on thin sheet, but to suggest arc as a viable alternative to MIG for car restoration work is, plainly, just wrong.
The very great majority of regular members of this forum are either people like me with a reasonable amount of welding experience or people like Simon and Snowy who are fully paid up pros with years of experience. None of us benefit in any way from recommending a particular brand or, even less so, a particular welding process. There are a few others who are dealers on are associated with certain brands of welder and, as such, have a vested interest in their products. However, though they may make sales as a consequence, the majority of their posts are helpful and informative and nothing to do with business. Malcolm's pretty fierce on dealers posting to the forums so I'm sure if this ever ceased to be the case the situation would have to be addressed, but I'm confident the need will never arise.
I say all the above in the hope of clarifying why none of us have an agenda to push.
I've noticed you've got a bit het up on the issue of Clarke's good name on the forum. I'm guessing you feel that your £19 welder would have received a better welcome had it been a Clarke one? Well I'm afraid I can't remember a single instance where a Clarke arc welder has been recommended though, as you have ascertained, their MIGs have a good reputation.
Assuming here that there is no secret plan to rid the world of arc welders, why do you think that MIGs are so oft suggested? I'll answer for you; because they are the tried and tested method of car repair. As has been said before, arc has it's place, but it is not on thin sheet. You say '[arc] may not be the best choice.....' but really, it's no choice at all unless you want to spend hours trying to fill in the holes you're blowing. There's nothing wrong with trying, and I really do applaud your efforts to try and get arc going satisfactorily on thin sheet, but to suggest arc as a viable alternative to MIG for car restoration work is, plainly, just wrong.
I'll be laughing too, all the way to the bank, if I can produce welds which are just as good as those most people here produce with very expensive kit, but using my low cost arc and spot welding gear. I haven't yet achieved this and we'll have to see if I ever do. I'm encouraged by recent progress, especially when I see the modest results which some people get with their MIG welders.
I agree with your comments about the balanced arguments on the forum. It's a good forum. I'm not suggesting there is any particular agenda.
I also agree there's probably not a single instance where a Clarke arc welder has been recommended at this forum, probably because there's much better value out there, like the Silverline and Wolf units.
I acknowledge that MIG welders are the "tried and tested method of car repair." but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best solution for everyone. My main concern is the high cost of running a MIG welder in terms of gas and the likely need for frequent repairs.
I disagree with you that arc's place is not on thin sheet. I say it can be done with a bit of practice, as being discussed on the other thread. However, rather than carry on with endless arguments I may now limit my posts to significant developments (as I see it) in my attempts to weld thin sheet with arc welds and spots on a budget. I can't out-gun you all when you try and persuade people not to even consider a cheap arc welder.
You say "it's no choice at all unless you want to spend hours trying to fill in the holes you're blowing (with a cheap arc welder)." I've posted photos showing no holes and still you don't accept it! As I admit, I have to be able to do this on joints as well as mid-sheet and I'm sure I will, with the cheap arc welder.
malcolm
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Isn't it great that we have the chance to meet up to find out and discuss exactly what the differences are between cheap and expensive arc welders from the perspective of members with a wide range of experience. We should let you try a nice MIG too.
Attached a pic of some 0.3mm stainless with a bit of MIG weld on it. Wasn't easy to do as the thickness is well outside the designed operating range of the welder and I wasn't using a heatsink. But within the designed operating range the welder is easy to use. Lower spec welders I have played with have not been able to stretch so far from their designed operating ranges and were less easy to use within their operating ranges.
My expectations are that we'll find the operating range of the more expensive welders much wider than the cheap welders, and with the dye pen we ought to be able to compare the quality of the welds within the operating ranges too. After that we should all have an informed idea of budget vs capability.
Until then aren't we beating a dead horse with this thread? I appreciate the patience of members but personally I'd be much more interested in hearing about progress with the ray gun and 0.7mm sheet on the other thread.
Attached a pic of some 0.3mm stainless with a bit of MIG weld on it. Wasn't easy to do as the thickness is well outside the designed operating range of the welder and I wasn't using a heatsink. But within the designed operating range the welder is easy to use. Lower spec welders I have played with have not been able to stretch so far from their designed operating ranges and were less easy to use within their operating ranges.
My expectations are that we'll find the operating range of the more expensive welders much wider than the cheap welders, and with the dye pen we ought to be able to compare the quality of the welds within the operating ranges too. After that we should all have an informed idea of budget vs capability.
Until then aren't we beating a dead horse with this thread? I appreciate the patience of members but personally I'd be much more interested in hearing about progress with the ray gun and 0.7mm sheet on the other thread.
shenion
Tool Pack Rat
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I have yet to see you post any acceptable butt welds on thin sheet using arc. On the bench is one thing, real-world is a lot harder.
I guess we have different criteria for acceptable.
English Steve
Senior Bumpkin
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As I have said on here several times before, my Cebora 130 Pocket Turbo hobby MIG is around 20 years old, and has never required repair. I have owned it from new and it has been well used in that time.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that a MIG is likely to need frequent repairs, this statement is simply misleading.
Malcolm and others - I'm trying to avoid being wound up by some of the posts here, which I assume are designed to do just that. I mean, trying to avoid making so many posts, or putting more emphasis on the Kel Arc tests in the 0.8mm sheet metal thread, as you suggested. But why shouldn't I reply to a scurrilous post like Matt's (above)?. I'm being called all sorts of things under the sun by members who prefer to make personal comments like 'pompous', '********' or implying that I'm telling lies as Matt is doing above.
What are you afraid of Matt? If you are a welding salesman, I'm not sure if you sell to the fabrication industry, retail outlets or what. I explained that I'm only talking about amateur welding so I wouldn't think you're at risk of losing many sales on £5000 inverters to my suggested £19, £29 and £40 arc welders.
Malcolm and a few others will see my modest gear and ability when we have our meet. If I can do quite a neat, well-penetrated weld mid-sheet with a cheap arc welder (photos on other thread), then anyone can. If I've never welded with a stick electrode in my life, then where did those images come from and what were they done with? I WILL attend the weld-off on 18 Jan and I hope you will eat your words, not because my abilities are up to much, but because your comments are totally unjust and insulting. Perhaps you can't win this debate on logic or photographic evidence so you stoop that low.
>You'll have to forgive me George as I haven't read
>all of your 'drivel'....I mean posts,
I wonder if there is a forum guideline to warn against insulting other members with comments like Matt's (above). If not, perhaps there should be.
>but what exactly is the point of
>what you want to say?
I'm simply trying to say that there's great value for money to be had from the cheap arc welders. With a bit of practice, they are simple to use and cheap to operate as there's no gas. For metal over about 1.5mm it's no-contest with a MIG as far as I'm concerned. It's not too difficult to avoid blowing holes with an arc welder and you might get better penetration than with a MIG.
>What, from your vast and complex knowledge of
>welding and welding machines do you know, that
>we lesser folk are obviously missing the point on,
>please enlighten us!
I have explained time and time again that I don't have professional level skills. That hasn't stopped me reading up on the theory of welding gear and expressing an opinion on build quality, etc.
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George this forum rarely bites, most members have an ease with each other, that means arguments in threads rarely boil into personal attacks, I'm sure long term members could quite happily have a clique pack mentality, like many forums, but i like to think thats generally avoided here, so I just ask you to take a look at your posts, and question why the forum has biten....
on the thin plate stuff I know its possible, iv done it, I know exactly how to set a machine and how to stall the arc to make it achievable, BUT its only really possible on the bench and with very very tight joints, the second theres a hole there you've had it, also slag inclusions and the integrity of the weld are a huge issue, theres also the major problem that if your proposing to do a car it will be positional, and that will be impossible, before MIGs it was arc the thick stuff O/A the thin simple as.. its also zero fun welding something thin with an arc....
Iv also taken the time to explain like others have that your lacking the necessary OCV to make the job slightly more tolerable, also spending some cash on some decent rods improves things no end...
You don't have to point score or prove anything to any of us, I don't understand why you think that, the exasperation from the forum is simply because it appears that your doing the equivalent of growing a pineapple tree in the middle of the North sea....
anyway Iv got work to do....
on the thin plate stuff I know its possible, iv done it, I know exactly how to set a machine and how to stall the arc to make it achievable, BUT its only really possible on the bench and with very very tight joints, the second theres a hole there you've had it, also slag inclusions and the integrity of the weld are a huge issue, theres also the major problem that if your proposing to do a car it will be positional, and that will be impossible, before MIGs it was arc the thick stuff O/A the thin simple as.. its also zero fun welding something thin with an arc....
Iv also taken the time to explain like others have that your lacking the necessary OCV to make the job slightly more tolerable, also spending some cash on some decent rods improves things no end...
You don't have to point score or prove anything to any of us, I don't understand why you think that, the exasperation from the forum is simply because it appears that your doing the equivalent of growing a pineapple tree in the middle of the North sea....
anyway Iv got work to do....
irondarren
Member
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Ill pick up on the three points, there extracted from one of your previous posts. With welding george looks arent every thing, its all about penetration and its ability to stick to bits of metal together. Bearing mind all quality inverter units have power smoothing devices in them to supply a constant amperage, cheapos do not. which instantly kills the argument of being able to produce welds as good on a cheap V a quality machine. Smooth power delivery will mean a better weld (weldequip and Matt will back me up 110% on that)
As for migs high cost, its cheaper than Arc to run, for my purpose 30kgs of wire does one full size bottle, the wire costs around £20 a 15kg roll, and the gas about £35. so i can deposit 30 kgs of weld for £75, add into that 2 months BOC bottle rental at about £8 a month and you get about £90 for 30 kgs. now with stick welding you can get cheapo rods for £15 a 5 kg box, so 6 boxes at £15 is £90, now work out the recovery rate on those rods (sorry guys cant be bothered to look on recovery rate on say 6013 rods, ill leave that to weldequip) and you find 6 boxs doesnt deposit 30kgs of weld more like about 20kgs, so mig is cheaper to run.
Arc by its own nature isnt suitable for thin sheet, it wont produce a consitant weld with rods thicker than the material you are try to weld, thats just plain fact. yes you can bodge 1.2mm sheet with arc but it certainly wont be a good structural weld, for that you need mig or even better TIG. Of course the bottom end Lorch unit which really isnt that expensive will lend its self very well to scratch TIG. Something you wont do with a cheap Aldi welder.
Its Horses for courses, if your doing something as a professional you wouldnt chance using the wrong equipment for the job, its just plain simply dangerous. A weld failure could result in injury. Use the right tool for the right job or dont do it, simple as that.
Irondarren and Snowcat - thank you for making some very good points whilst avoiding any personal insults.
matt1978
www.lorch.eu
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Hey George,
If you would like to weld thin sheet on MMA, can I suggest this machine for you..........
http://www.lorch.eu/index.php?id=409&L=1
If you would like to weld thin sheet on MMA, can I suggest this machine for you..........
http://www.lorch.eu/index.php?id=409&L=1
malcolm
& Clementine the Cat
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Hey George,
If you would like to weld thin sheet on MMA, can I suggest this machine for you..........
http://www.lorch.eu/index.php?id=409&L=1
I'll bite (and hopefully I can do it before anyone else gets the chance). I'm not going to ask why it might be better on thin metal than a low cost AC arc welder. I'll take the other way around - Instead how thin do you think can it reasonably go? And what fancy pants technology do you have in there that lets it go that far? And for a bonus point does that technology end up in AC or DC or a cunning Germanic mixture of the two?
I'd like to turn this back into the learning thread it deserves to be if everyone is OK with that.
You'll notice the title mentions cheap and expensive welders, and it would be good to hear a little about the more expensive ones.
Many thanks for the link. I hadn't previously seen that thread or photos. I fear, however, that there may be a bit of 'playing to the gallery' here. The group that comprises this forum has decreed that Powercraft welders are rubbish, so how many people are going to say anything nice? I look forward to buying one to see for myself.
Simon, who started that thread said: "not exactly the most sophisticated machine in the world, and a lack of smoothing caps... and that fan is absolutley pathetic, next week's task is to source something a little bit more substantial, hopefully make it run a bit longer before cutting out"
1. Who said it needs to be sophisticated? This is a fundamentally simple design. That's one reason why they work so well and can last so long.
2. No arc welder of this type ever has smoothing caps so this comment helps to run down the welder even though it's a complete red herring.
3. The fan doesn't look pathetic to me. It probably does a perfectly reasonable job, even though 'the bigger the fan the better' of course. None of these sub £100 arc welders will have a much bigger fan.
4. If he was running it on max then it will cut out, just like a Portamig welder or most other transformer based welders, apart from Oxford types, if they are run for too long.
matt1978
www.lorch.eu
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Its fundamentally a straight DC inverter, but it digitally controlled, so has super fast arc regulation, but the bit which helps with the welding thin material, is that you can set a Pulse function on there, so it pulses the welding, current, enabling you to have a heating and cooling phase, rather than one constant current, exactly the same as setting Pulse on a Tig welder.
I personally have not used this machine much, I have two on stock in the UK, but have not had chance to weld with it on very thin material...........mainly because I only have 3.2mm electrodes in stock.
I will have it as one of the demo stations at the forum meet, then you can try it.
I personally have not used this machine much, I have two on stock in the UK, but have not had chance to weld with it on very thin material...........mainly because I only have 3.2mm electrodes in stock.
I will have it as one of the demo stations at the forum meet, then you can try it.
Hey George,
If you would like to weld thin sheet on MMA, can I suggest this machine for you..........
http://www.lorch.eu/index.php?id=409&L=1
Many thanks for this link, too. I don't doubt it's a first class, professional level machine but, as Malcolm has asked, what makes it more capable than cheaper inverters of welding thin sheet with MMA? (Now answered, thanks) The lorch goes down to 3 amps but I found that 10 amps seems too low for anything, so it would be interesting to compare my inverter with something like that Lorch on pulse. As it is, I'm concentrating more with my transformer based unit, for the time being. I also note that Lorch give a 40% duty cycle at maximum output for that model. I expect the Powercraft arc welder was something like 40% but the Lorch will receive hero-worship (fair enough if you want to spend that kind of money) whilst the Powercraft duty cycle comes in for ridicule.
malcolm
& Clementine the Cat
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Makes a lot of sense - I have pulse on the TIG, and a pulsing technique is essentially what I'll use with MIG for thin metal (only I'll do that manually and I might not be quite so fast on the trigger as a synergic MIG might be, and that's different anyway).
Is the feature is mostly intended for thinner metal?
Is the feature is mostly intended for thinner metal?
