Drains
Yeah, nah.
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I'll put on a quid at those odds. Alex could put on a fiver and if it buggers up he comes out a real winner!
Nice one Steve!
- Thread starter Mr_Caine
- Start date
I'll put on a quid at those odds. Alex could put on a fiver and if it buggers up he comes out a real winner!
Nice one Steve!
Hi Malcolm, I think you're probably right, TIG may well be my line. End of the day there is nothing thick on my old Fiat it's all rusted away LOL. I've got to be realistic, while I'd like to think about making frames for kit cars etc it just isn't going to happen and my MIG could well be up to that anyway. Basically I was at college last night having completed MIG welding Mild Steel and got playing with the Arc welder, given all the horror stories I'd heard about it being archaic and difficult I'd been put off. I actually found it pretty easy and would like to explore it more, but welding nice clean 3mm plate on a bench is hardly real world, welding rusted up think Fiat crap upside down on the drive is somewhat more challenging for me. The prospects of spending big wedge on a bit of fun as you say probably doesn't cut it.
Completely off track. My recommendation is anyone who wants to learn welding of any sort get on a night course at your local college. All the kits there, MIG, TIG, ARC, Oxy/Act the works and you'll learn far more and far quicker than farting around trying to teach yourself and without the risk of destroying your work piece in the process! I'm now wishing my course would go on longer so I could learn TIG.
Weldequip, in general the old saying you get what you pay for holds true. I had a girlfriends who's father said why spend £400 on a stereo from Sony, just by a bush for £50, there all the same, made in the same factory. Load of crap. As it was I bought a Rotel amp and castle speakers
Completely off track. My recommendation is anyone who wants to learn welding of any sort get on a night course at your local college. All the kits there, MIG, TIG, ARC, Oxy/Act the works and you'll learn far more and far quicker than farting around trying to teach yourself and without the risk of destroying your work piece in the process! I'm now wishing my course would go on longer so I could learn TIG.
Weldequip, in general the old saying you get what you pay for holds true. I had a girlfriends who's father said why spend £400 on a stereo from Sony, just by a bush for £50, there all the same, made in the same factory. Load of crap. As it was I bought a Rotel amp and castle speakers
Oh how we've missed your humour Si!
How was Glastonbury??I'll give you both 50-1 (on whatever sum you wish to punt) that it will f**k up within 14 months. Ladbrokes eat your heart out
weldequip
malcolm
& Clementine the Cat
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That's worth a punt. Will you accept bets from anyone else? I'll put in 1/50th of one of your nice AC/DC TIGs so long as already gone wrong isn't counted. And so long as you pay the fees to let us do internet betting on here.Oh how we've missed your humour Si!
I'll give you both 50-1 (on whatever sum you wish to punt) that it will f**k up within 14 months. Ladbrokes eat your heart out
weldequip
Drains
Yeah, nah.
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- Sefton, South Island, NZ
Oh how we've missed your humour Si!
Wotcha Mate.
Glasto was, er, damp. But no worse than anywhere else apparently. I met up with a good few old and current friends, and had a chat with Martha from Doctor Who! (although I didn't realise that until afterwards).
Anyway, I'm paid, home and back in the real world with an awful lot of work to do. Call me a lazy sod, but I just want to run away....
Good to be on the forum, and thanks for the welcome back! (I really must get a life)
Si
Ah well, you'll be after a Portamig 171 AC/DC then?!!
weldequip
Well you never know! We've been using Murex Trademigs at college and the difference is just chalk and cheese between these machines and my little SIP - I didn't really know any better at the time.
No not really jumping the gun. Some of the guys have had their Mitec a few years now with no probs and a fair bit of use. Out of the 20 sets we bought they are all still going....and getting used. People who are using them seem happy.
It`s when I look at the price of the alternatives........they are nowwhere in sight. You could buy two Greenbird machines and still be under some of that stuff the Italians are selling.
Alex
1/50th of £985 = err... £19.70. At 50-1 would mean a pay out of err... £985! Hang on a minute
weldequip
At a throw away price.......Still say they are not cheap throwaway units. The reasons they are cheaper are obvious but it`s not down to poor quality.
Everyone who says they are rubbish is trying to sell something else.........they aint going away you know....
Alex
They ain't going away Alex that is true, but the first comment is not true. You've had a look inside the thing (when you had initial teething problems) and you can see how complex they are inside.
I've sold leading brand Inverters costing thousands & some have been troublesome even under warranty. Inverters are extremely complex bits of kit that have even expert electronics engineers scratching their heads sometimes
When your Far Eastern imported Inverter goes down you won't be able to just call Bejing (presuming your Chinese is good!) & explain the fault, in the hope they will mail the correct board; it's more a case of which board has failed... there's at least half a dozen in there.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging off your machine, but I know my trade well, and I know Inverters & the possible problems.
weldequip
I understand that Steve. But I am thinking along the lines of.......If you pay about six or seven hundred for the Italian alternative ( they are a lot more for one with cutter ).........It goes blink out of warranty........Right I can get this fixed.....pay the bill for it and how much are you out now in cash for a machine which may only be used occasionally.
It`s good to explore all the ins and outs to aid everyone in their choices. I am only a DIYER and this is what I am thinking at the Mo. If I get into Tig more seriously I may rethink. Sorry for going off topic gents!
Alex
It`s good to explore all the ins and outs to aid everyone in their choices. I am only a DIYER and this is what I am thinking at the Mo. If I get into Tig more seriously I may rethink. Sorry for going off topic gents!
Alex
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Id still go for the buttlers or have we moved on, My cebora was always a good en, lincoln one now which is fine, If you want the dogs balls then a forinus,. and i still wouldnt go for an oil cooled most of us in the trade have moved on and love our inverters.
DIY Welding
Member
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I think weldequip has a point, but it is becoming a Market that is all down to price, you cant blame Alex for buying the inverter at that price, I am also a Lorch agent which is German made, they do a range of inverters but we cant sell them because of the price, so as a supplier who needs to make a living what are we to do?
mishka
Is it me?
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- 247
Dispoabale welders (think Gillette)
Here's the results of some thoughts rumbling around my brain for the past few days. I'll keep a score for the owner (who paid for machine), the user (not necessarily the same as the owner), and the supply chain (manufacturer, distributor, salesman). Note: I mean a modern, sales-target-oriented salesman, rather than someone who cares about the quality of what they sell (mentioning no names).
To start with, lets look at transformer-based welders.
Inside you have a large, expensive transformer (or three), with maybe some diodes or thyristors/SCRs for a DC set. A few, large components, easy to repair (good for the pro user where downtime costs), but very expensive and very heavy (not good for the owner, tying up cash). Oh, and will last a long time, even in a rough environment (good for the owner, not good for the supply chain - they make money selling). Shenion's beast is a superb example.
Score:
owner: - (expensive up-front) + (long term investment)
user: + (reliable, low downtime)
supply: - (don't make many sales)
Now the inverter. LOTS of components, in principle they're like computer PSUs. Ring any bells? Small and lightweight (good for the user) and cheap (very good for the owner!). And so more are sold (good for the supply chain). But, the mean time before failure (the so-called MTBF) is short with all those components, and repair becomes uneconomical. Many components will have a specified operating lifetime measured in a few thousand hours, accelerated by electrical stress and thermal shock. The result is a shorter life. Which is good for the supply chain (they get to sell you another welder!). The user doesn't care as long as downtime is not affected, so keep a spare - they're cheaper now. Also good for the supply chain, but not so good for the owner as they need to keep spares.
Score:
owner: + (cheap initial cost) - (but need to keep spares)
user: + (small, lightweight)
supply: + (more sales) +(more sales) +(more sales)
Where does that leave us? For the DIY welder, inverters may make sense as they are cheaper (this is a hobby, not a job), smaller (most of us don't have large workshops), and we rarely care about downtime. The major problem is reliability, once they go pop its replacement time, unless you *really* know what you're doing and have the time and equipment to invest in fixing it yourself.
One indirect benefit of inverter welders for the hobby welder is the appearance of big-iron welders on the second-hand market at a fraction of their original price, yet with years left of reliable service for the DIY welder. Or with trivial faults (as Shenion found out) that are easy to fix, but the owner was tempted by a shiny new inverter welder.
For the pro welder, being small (the machine, not the welder!) has obvious advantages. For the business owner the argument is less convincing - the initial outlay is lower, but similar in the long term with buying spares/replacements over the same period of time to minimize downtime.
The benefits for the supply chain are obvious. As long as you don't mind selling disposable welders.
Blimey, this is a bit long! Oh well, good to have a rant on a Friday morn
Finally, a thought to take away with you - how long do fans last in computer PSUs before the bearing wears out and they start groaning and eventually stop, resulting in thermal failure? Apply the same answer to the fan in a cheap Chinese inverter.
Here's the results of some thoughts rumbling around my brain for the past few days. I'll keep a score for the owner (who paid for machine), the user (not necessarily the same as the owner), and the supply chain (manufacturer, distributor, salesman). Note: I mean a modern, sales-target-oriented salesman, rather than someone who cares about the quality of what they sell (mentioning no names).
To start with, lets look at transformer-based welders.
Inside you have a large, expensive transformer (or three), with maybe some diodes or thyristors/SCRs for a DC set. A few, large components, easy to repair (good for the pro user where downtime costs), but very expensive and very heavy (not good for the owner, tying up cash). Oh, and will last a long time, even in a rough environment (good for the owner, not good for the supply chain - they make money selling). Shenion's beast is a superb example.
Score:
owner: - (expensive up-front) + (long term investment)
user: + (reliable, low downtime)
supply: - (don't make many sales)
Now the inverter. LOTS of components, in principle they're like computer PSUs. Ring any bells? Small and lightweight (good for the user) and cheap (very good for the owner!). And so more are sold (good for the supply chain). But, the mean time before failure (the so-called MTBF) is short with all those components, and repair becomes uneconomical. Many components will have a specified operating lifetime measured in a few thousand hours, accelerated by electrical stress and thermal shock. The result is a shorter life. Which is good for the supply chain (they get to sell you another welder!). The user doesn't care as long as downtime is not affected, so keep a spare - they're cheaper now. Also good for the supply chain, but not so good for the owner as they need to keep spares.
Score:
owner: + (cheap initial cost) - (but need to keep spares)
user: + (small, lightweight)
supply: + (more sales) +(more sales) +(more sales)
Where does that leave us? For the DIY welder, inverters may make sense as they are cheaper (this is a hobby, not a job), smaller (most of us don't have large workshops), and we rarely care about downtime. The major problem is reliability, once they go pop its replacement time, unless you *really* know what you're doing and have the time and equipment to invest in fixing it yourself.
One indirect benefit of inverter welders for the hobby welder is the appearance of big-iron welders on the second-hand market at a fraction of their original price, yet with years left of reliable service for the DIY welder. Or with trivial faults (as Shenion found out) that are easy to fix, but the owner was tempted by a shiny new inverter welder.
For the pro welder, being small (the machine, not the welder!) has obvious advantages. For the business owner the argument is less convincing - the initial outlay is lower, but similar in the long term with buying spares/replacements over the same period of time to minimize downtime.
The benefits for the supply chain are obvious. As long as you don't mind selling disposable welders.
Blimey, this is a bit long! Oh well, good to have a rant on a Friday morn
Finally, a thought to take away with you - how long do fans last in computer PSUs before the bearing wears out and they start groaning and eventually stop, resulting in thermal failure? Apply the same answer to the fan in a cheap Chinese inverter.
mishka
Is it me?
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A follow-up
If you adopt the "disposable welder" mindset then many interesting things are possible. Consider item #200124089783 on fleaBay at the moment. It is an inverter, with TIG, MMA and Plasma cutter modes. The differences between the modes are down to the control loop around the switching converter, with different OCVs and current ranges, and whether the HF circuit is on or off.
This would have been productized down to a very low cost (which the Chinese are quite good at).
The manual reads as if it were written by Stanley Unwin
Possibly, in time, the quality will improve if the market develops over the long term. But I think for the moment this is seen as yet another opportunity to make some money, and if the market does not grow sufficiently then they will move on to the next big thing.
If you adopt the "disposable welder" mindset then many interesting things are possible. Consider item #200124089783 on fleaBay at the moment. It is an inverter, with TIG, MMA and Plasma cutter modes. The differences between the modes are down to the control loop around the switching converter, with different OCVs and current ranges, and whether the HF circuit is on or off.
This would have been productized down to a very low cost (which the Chinese are quite good at).
The manual reads as if it were written by Stanley Unwin
Possibly, in time, the quality will improve if the market develops over the long term. But I think for the moment this is seen as yet another opportunity to make some money, and if the market does not grow sufficiently then they will move on to the next big thing.
shenion
Tool Pack Rat
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My choice of acr/TIG came down to cost vs features.
For used, you can't beat the old transformer units on price if you find one locally. Shipping is usually more than you will pay for the unit. If you can read a schematic, you can usually fix them (even without a schematic, just replaceing burned/leaky parts will do.)
I was very close to buying a Riland AC/DC stick/TIG unit. These seem to have reached decent reliability and costs are what I could afford.
Many of the Chinese DC TIGs do not have footpedal support. You need to get the bigger units for the features and higher end for AC support.
For DIY, ebay is good if you can find a unit that works locally. Name brand units will have service manuals/parts lists online. If it is a known good unit, then usually a good deal. Unknown or needs repair you need to be able to repair yourself, otherwise a new unit would be a better deal.
I spent 2 months looking for a local unit at a good price on ebay. There is about a dozen good Miller production units that appear every day on ebay. But they are all in California, $500 in shipping on a used unit makes a new unit bought local valuable. I finally found an ebay steal with a unit far beyond my needs and at a price well below my budget. As an EE that spent most of his college years repairing equipment, repairing his unit was no big deal.
My plan was give myself a fixed amount of time on ebay. At 2 months I was near a decision. Probably was a few days away from getting a Riland unit (about $1k us.)
If I was doing this professionally, I would have opted for a Miller EconoTIG. Then the costs would have not been as significant. Service would have been local and down time minimal.
For used, you can't beat the old transformer units on price if you find one locally. Shipping is usually more than you will pay for the unit. If you can read a schematic, you can usually fix them (even without a schematic, just replaceing burned/leaky parts will do.)
I was very close to buying a Riland AC/DC stick/TIG unit. These seem to have reached decent reliability and costs are what I could afford.
Many of the Chinese DC TIGs do not have footpedal support. You need to get the bigger units for the features and higher end for AC support.
For DIY, ebay is good if you can find a unit that works locally. Name brand units will have service manuals/parts lists online. If it is a known good unit, then usually a good deal. Unknown or needs repair you need to be able to repair yourself, otherwise a new unit would be a better deal.
I spent 2 months looking for a local unit at a good price on ebay. There is about a dozen good Miller production units that appear every day on ebay. But they are all in California, $500 in shipping on a used unit makes a new unit bought local valuable. I finally found an ebay steal with a unit far beyond my needs and at a price well below my budget. As an EE that spent most of his college years repairing equipment, repairing his unit was no big deal.
My plan was give myself a fixed amount of time on ebay. At 2 months I was near a decision. Probably was a few days away from getting a Riland unit (about $1k us.)
If I was doing this professionally, I would have opted for a Miller EconoTIG. Then the costs would have not been as significant. Service would have been local and down time minimal.
malcolm
& Clementine the Cat
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Some interesting thoughts there. Seems wasteful to buy disposable things when there are still longer lasting alternatives on the market, but I can see the purchase cost is tempting, and definately the size and weight is handy.
A question for the dealers among us (if you don't mind me asking) - what kind of percentage of invertor welders do you see coming back under warranty? It would be interesting to get a handle on the reliability and life of those things (US and Europe made as well as China).
A question for the dealers among us (if you don't mind me asking) - what kind of percentage of invertor welders do you see coming back under warranty? It would be interesting to get a handle on the reliability and life of those things (US and Europe made as well as China).
DIY Welding
Member
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I sell about 15 inverters a month on my website, they are from china, what I did what is a bit different is told them what the UK market wanted ie large 35/50 dinse outlets, heavy duty on off switches etc, my return rate is less than 1% we also sell them to the local fab men who also dont have problems, where I would not place them is anybody doing constant site work ie power stations etc we then supply a British yes British inverter made by Newarc in Newcastle but cost wise its four times more expensive I think we all have to accept that the chinese are here to stay, they are getting better with the electronics the Market wants low cost product as a supplier its all about supply and demand
I don't agree with buying disposable stuff, long term it just isn't sustainable. Build stuff to last and repair it when it goes wrong. People chuck bikes away because they've got a puncture. The UK seems to have moved to this culture over the last couple of decades due to wealth, it just isn't right and most people haven't got a clue what goes on inside the stuff they buy, if goes wrong it's dumped and a new one bought!
