lazybones51
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Have you checked the output from the rectifier?
- Thread starter normspanners
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normspanners
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Thanks guys
Ok catch ya drift, but the head lights are well up would guess 13v, one thing I was thinking, even though it hasnt got a kill switch, is, if the ign switch ( which kills it) has dirty contacts (not sure if it grounds the ign) and switches the coils voltage through it. good chance it switches the stator coil voltage , if it contacts are dirty it could reduce the available voltage across it. which when the revs build (and therefore the vibration), it forces it to make the trip?? then when the vib freq changes it alters to a bad contact again.
Ok catch ya drift, but the head lights are well up would guess 13v, one thing I was thinking, even though it hasnt got a kill switch, is, if the ign switch ( which kills it) has dirty contacts (not sure if it grounds the ign) and switches the coils voltage through it. good chance it switches the stator coil voltage , if it contacts are dirty it could reduce the available voltage across it. which when the revs build (and therefore the vibration), it forces it to make the trip?? then when the vib freq changes it alters to a bad contact again.
AndyStobbs
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Haven't botherd to read every post in detail, but 'cdi' is 4 wire, red,green,black and orange? from the 'cdi'. Orange when shorted to ground via the kill switch or igntion switch is the kill wire and will prevent the spark. Is there any continuity between orange and frame, when the igntion is on and kill switch set to run?
AndyStobbs
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charging and ignition are totally separate. coil and driver circuitry is housed in the same unit. Magnetism on flywheel could be low also
do you have a copy of the wiring diagram?, that would make it easier to confirm where the lights / cdi / coils etc are all powered from and what voltage should be where. Easy enough checked through with a multimeter, the lights might give a good indication of "good" voltage, but a meter will confirm it.
The extra resistance (because of crud etc) through the switches might cause the volts to drop / become unreliable, as could a few other things. The difficulty is elimination. Do you have any means of measuring the voltage accurately? Even a cheapy 5 quid meter from the local corner shop will do, as long as it's consistent? make diagnosis a lot easier, especially seeing if there's any variation of voltage under load.
The extra resistance (because of crud etc) through the switches might cause the volts to drop / become unreliable, as could a few other things. The difficulty is elimination. Do you have any means of measuring the voltage accurately? Even a cheapy 5 quid meter from the local corner shop will do, as long as it's consistent? make diagnosis a lot easier, especially seeing if there's any variation of voltage under load.
normspanners
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Spot on Andy, just been round to garage to have a look 3wires direct into cdi, Green, red and a white + a yellow which looking at the old stator (which looks brand new) is the reg input, it changes in the loom from brown but that brown is combined with the ign coil ie the tails are wound and soldered ?? then goes to the reg.
one wire to ign switch. one wire from cdi to ign switch to deck voltage and kill engine. will try with red and white (kill wire) disconnected.
Magnetism low was thought of, but charging voltage is good not checked voltage but lights are very good.
But it has been run with bad main brgs, which can cause hammering in magnets??
normspanners
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just been and got the haynes for it. and looked at the old stator.
Thanks yes, I have several methods of checking, even have couple of scopes, but have not had proper time to spend on it, as yet, with rally gb ect.
ideally could do with KV meter have got one on my old diagnostic machine but mamoth job to get that to bike as it is in storage.
AndyStobbs
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I've probably got tech info at work. Back at home now but will look tomorrow. IIRC there are two rows of magnets in flywheel, one for charging side which is AC single phase in yellow, which both go upto voltage reg, square box, 3 spade terminals (onto two if which the two yellow wiresconnect) the remaining being AC out at a lower voltage, which is rectified by a diode array built into the fuse holder. Output is sub 100W from memory.
The other magnets are dedicated to ignition system.
Ps. Hope you enjoyed the Rally. I did
The other magnets are dedicated to ignition system.
Ps. Hope you enjoyed the Rally. I did
normspanners
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Big thanks andy, on the 50 there is only one yellow that goes to the rec. looks a bit like a large bridge rec
disconnected the yellow wire and white /red kill wire and it started not well but started off the key, Rode it with both wires disconnected and it was slightly better, checked spark intensity and it was slightly better removed the plug cap and bared the copper wire max 6-7mm spark gap, to the frame. but had to start it a bit like scratch start tig ie hold it closer then move away.
But not a nice fat spark.
disconnected the yellow wire and white /red kill wire and it started not well but started off the key, Rode it with both wires disconnected and it was slightly better, checked spark intensity and it was slightly better removed the plug cap and bared the copper wire max 6-7mm spark gap, to the frame. but had to start it a bit like scratch start tig ie hold it closer then move away.
But not a nice fat spark.
normspanners
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Yep very busy, throttle cables broke on fri, whoever fitted them had just drilled two 2mm holes in bulk head cut the outer cables square and fitted the inners through the holes, that was it no ferrules. The cables where acting like cheese wires. then the clutch started slipping due to him screwing the idle up and having to slip it like mad to move out the stage.
Got all that sorted and then on sat he rolled, it was that rutted he flicked the back end out, but the front stayed in and it dug in and flipped it so sat night worked all night straightening it out to get screen in and the suspension straight. anyway got to the end!
AndyStobbs
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Would have popped my head in to your service area if I had known you were there.
Afraid my memory of rs50 and rotax 123 ignition systems are merging. Hence my confusion over wire colours.
Also check no one has mixed up the wiring, there must be a generator coil and pick up coil within the stator (in addition to the actual charging coil) if the two got reversed it would be bad news.
Afraid my memory of rs50 and rotax 123 ignition systems are merging. Hence my confusion over wire colours.
Also check no one has mixed up the wiring, there must be a generator coil and pick up coil within the stator (in addition to the actual charging coil) if the two got reversed it would be bad news.
normspanners
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Had a bit of a search on e bay for common ignition parts and there quite afew who sell complete kits including the fly wheel, spoke to workshop of one seller and they sell, genuine aprillia kit and his pointers where exactly what we have done so far, next step would be flywheel.
118.74 for base plate stator and flywheel.
118.74 for base plate stator and flywheel.
AndyStobbs
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Did have a look for tech documentation but couldn't find any. Got a lot of rotax stuff but non for the rs50.
DanielW
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I do hope you find it this causing the problem? as this seems to have aquired a deep pocket emphasis on the bike,to which if sold will never regain that value when first bought.
Personally I would have checked the voltage coming out of the stator to rectifier and if proved fine then checked the output to coil,before I went silly buying this and that on the pretense if it was this and that.
It could also be the pickup coil adjacent to the flywheel.
AndyStobbs
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for the umteenth time the charging power has nothing to do with the ignition power.
normspanners
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Thanks Guys
Also I dont get to see the bike for long during the day because it is in his work, the garage where my missus works and she wont allow him and I time to work on it coz they are busy!! That leaves night time and I have been very busy with the rally etc.
So I have been trying to think of answers between quick bursts of work on it.
That is part of the stator plate, I need to check the ht output but i am afraid the scrotes who removed my gear have left me a little armless at the mo, I think a mate has a ht meter, he is bringing in today.
Also I dont get to see the bike for long during the day because it is in his work, the garage where my missus works and she wont allow him and I time to work on it coz they are busy!! That leaves night time and I have been very busy with the rally etc.
So I have been trying to think of answers between quick bursts of work on it.
octo0072000
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keep it up Norm you will get there in the end if people read the whole post they would understand more about it
Wallace
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Some of the modern CDI units have electronic advance retard built in that can give you a bum steer as to what the fault is. I had a Yamaha TT600R with intermittent starting problems that once running would cough and spit at full throttle but be fine at 7/8 throttle so my first port of call was to strip the carb down and check the jetting and subsequently rebuild the carb. No improvement so I went through the bike with a fine tooth comb even opening up the wiring loom and replacing all the kill switch circuit and looping out the sidestand switch. A phone call to a guy who prepared them for racing pointed me at the CDI unit as a known fault so I bought one from him and it went like a rocket.
Does this diagram correspond with the wiring? If the sidestand & kill switch are isolated by disconnecting the red/white wire from the coil and the fault is still there it only leaves the ignition winding and pickup in the generator or the coil that can be faulty if the spark is weak. If the mains were that bad the pickup airgap might have opened up if the plate has moved or been damaged.
Does this diagram correspond with the wiring? If the sidestand & kill switch are isolated by disconnecting the red/white wire from the coil and the fault is still there it only leaves the ignition winding and pickup in the generator or the coil that can be faulty if the spark is weak. If the mains were that bad the pickup airgap might have opened up if the plate has moved or been damaged.
