Aluminium Boat Plans

[Robertshetland]

Hello Everyone,
Just about to buy a plan for a 25ft aluminium boat i am going to build this winter. have a 3 phase hobart mig for the task at the shed i will be using so no issues there. but for the mean time i'm intending on building a small boat in my garage at home to get my welding honed before going for the big one. i have been looking at various welding machines and this type of Inverter multi use type machine i think would be good. could any of you recommend one for me that would be good for this type of work.
https://weldingsuperstore.co.uk/mig...BNcOsIorbnl6wBz01TmUmROq1Mj4QvNq72fLR9gDT9xts
thanks
Robert

 

[zx9]

I have absolutely no idea but @Jim Davey would be able to tell you.
Have a look at his boat thread here /www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/aluminium-boat-project.54473/

 

[Hood]

What thickness is the Alu?

 

[Robertshetland]

Ok hopefully he will see this, thanks for tagging him.

 

[Shox Dr]

Hi Robert I’ll be on the Island for the Simmer Dim, cant wait.

As others have said @Jim Davey has built a boat, he is also well equipped (literally ) to help you with a machine.

Happy dayz

 

[Jim Davey]

You could do it with the machine you pictured, but you’d have a much easier time with a decent little pulse mig with a 4 roll feed.

I’d look out for a used EWM Picomig 180 Puls if you can’t stretch to the £1,800 a new one will set you back.

 

[henry Kadzielski]

Building a 'small' boat in the garage, well that will be with thinner materials, then the smaller machine that you have listed may well do. The bigger 'boat' will have some 6mm or even larger sections in it and that is where you will require more 'horespower' volts and amps. Also to note, once you get things all tacked up and start welding you WILL get into a thermal condition in these smaller machines. All well and good if you have the time to wait and let it cool down. You will probably fine that you will exceed the duty cycle of the torch before the thermal of the machine. I had a good look at the specs of that machine .8mm wire in alli is a sure way for feed issues. In my opinion way too underpowered for the job. 3 meter torch, well that is also too short. You will need a or some sort of push pull gun. Once the wire starts sticking in the tip, it's no fun. Keeping the gun and tip cool will aid in the feeding concistancy. I have made a few 6mm alli fuel tanks (2500l) with a 320 amp three phase machine, never went out on thermal, but had trouble with the torch getting too hot and having feed issues, and that was with 1.2mm wire. Went to a water cooled torch, no more problems. I have recently changed my 1.2mm steel welder over to water cooled torch and can now run at 330amps welding 10mm plate without the wire sticking in the tip. I had changed over from a Binzel 455T doing the 1.2mm steel wire, initially the 455t was feeding good but after about 15 minutes the wire was sticking inside the tip. I also changed over to silver tips, which are supposed to be the best at non sticking (cost much) without much improvement. I am telling you this as when you get started and start having trouble, apart from the trouble you my not know where it is coming from and then how to fix it. It is then and mostly then that you wished to have bought that bigger machine with that bigger heavier duty torch.

One word on machinery, equipment and technology has moved on very much over the years and as a direct result the ease of using that said equipment has been made easier. It is also much quicker for someone to learn and use the new equipment than the 'older stuff' (big brands EWM Lorch Kemppi Fronius, there are others). Before you get started on building the 'smaller' boat get some sections of the material that you will be using and weld them together in the positions that you will need to. Make sure after welding that the joints are sound, record the settings that you used for that material and position, cut the samples to verify the weld is sound and then wright those settings down in a book. We are at this stage assuming that you can weld and weld alli. For anyone that has played with boats with alli will already know you WILL be required to get yourself into positions that god did not design you for. It will be dark cramped and you will be at some stage welding upside down with something poking into your ribs or worse still. Never mind good luck for the future

 

[Robertshetland]

Thankyou for all your replies, @Jim Davey what would be a good machine to do it all? i mean the small boat and the big one? im thinking to buy a machine to just use rather than changing machines, i.e getting a machine that can do any size of ali up to 6 or 7 mm thick for larger boats. could you recommend a 240v machine that would be capable for doing this type of work for extended periods?
@henry Kadzielski thanks very much for your detailed reply, and yes to answer your question i have welded aluminium in a past life, but using machines in a welding shop, high end gear. which sadly i cannot justify buying for this scope unless it turns into a business and i decide to build more to sell then i cant justify the cost of a pro machine. do you know of any 240v machines which are capable enough for this type of work. if i could get a 240v machine i could do this whole scope in a shed far closer to home and not have to pay rent, but no 3 phase there so cant use the big hobart unit. so would need to be 240v.
@Shox Dr good your coming up for that, you should have a great time im sure.

I look forward to more replies, youve all been very helpful so far.
thanks
robert

 

[Robertshetland]

What about this machine, nice and compact and works on 240v?
https://www.parweld.co.uk/shop/mach...rter-machines/xtm-252i-synergic-mig-inverter/
@Jim Davey @henry Kadzielski
thanks
Robert

 

[HughF]

Nobody makes a 250a synergic single phase pulse mig which is what you really need for the capacity to do the 6-8mm stuff. Miller make an mpi220p which is a rebranded helvi (Italian) but that tops out at 200a iirc.

Ideally you need three phase and a push-pull setup, or at least a decent spool gun. A 4m torch will get tedious working down inside a big boat with a power source attached.

 

[awemawson]

Would the rent saving justify buying a diesel engine powered welder ?

 

[Jim Davey]

Would the rent saving justify buying a diesel engine powered welder ?

A diesel welder setup isn’t the ideal tool for welding an aluminium boat as they don’t yet make one with a pulse output.

 

[Hood]

A big 3 phase Genny and a second hand Phoenix 330 would do all you need

 

[Robertshetland]

Nobody makes a 250a synergic single phase pulse mig which is what you really need for the capacity to do the 6-8mm stuff. Miller make an mpi220p which is a rebranded helvi (Italian) but that tops out at 200a iirc.

Ideally you need three phase and a push-pull setup, or at least a decent spool gun. A 4m torch will get tedious working down inside a big boat with a power source attached.

What about the Parweld one above? would that do the job with a spool gun?
thanks
Robert

 

[Robertshetland]

A diesel welder setup isn’t the ideal tool for welding an aluminium boat as they don’t yet make one with a pulse output.

Do you need a pulse mig? the reason i ask is i have welded aluminium as i said but have never used a pulse mig before in my life. i understand the concept but is it a neccesity. also as i said above if i got one that could work off a 240v 32a supply that would make this whole thing easier and cheaper. i found the parweld one above (not sure if its any good to be honest) but if you know of another i could get then please let me know.
thanks
Robert

 

[Hood]

I have used many Mig welders over the years for Alu, started off with a single phase Sterling with 3 or 4m torch and teflon liner, that would be about 30 years ago I suppose It was a pain for a few reasons mainly the birds nests were common due to working aboard fishing boats and having to be very careful about torch angle so as not to bend the torch. Also I would have to get the welder lifted onto the boat and often have to lift it and move it about whilst the welding progressed.
Next up was an Arcos Lincoln, 3 phase but with a seperate wire feed unit. Made my life easier as I only had to take the wire feed to the boat but still the same issues with birds nesting.
I then got a spool gun and it was night and day, gone were the birds nests and life was good
That packed up so I bought a second hand Kemppi, nice machine but didn't last long so ended up buying a new Esab 400amp with seperate wire feed, also got a spool gun for that, the TecArc one that has the built in control box. It did me proud but it was heavy and as I aged it seemed to get heavier each day I used it, lifting it into the car became a real chore.

I then bought an RTech MTS255S multi purpose machine, supposedly it was synergic but the synergic lines, at least for Alu as that is all I use a Mig for, were useless. It did however work well in standard mode. I got a spool gun for it as well as the spool gun functionality was built in so no need for a separate control box or pcb.
I liked it and did a fair bit of work with it but I decided to buy a second hand Phoenix 330 with a push pull gun from some dodgy chap down South Wow it was night and day, made positional welding a real breeze and the synergic lines were brilliant and I could tweak them to suit my own style. I would hate to have to go back to a non synergic mig for Alu and for that matter I would hate to go back to a standard Mig as opposed to a pulse mig.

The only issue I had with the 330 was it was a compact. What compact means is the wire feed was housed in the same case as the rest of the welder but it was still relatively heavy and cumbersome for lifting onto boats, fine if I could get within the 8m reach of the push pull as I could leave the welder in the car or on the pier but more often than not I had to lift it onto the boats.

So I decided to splash out on a new Phoenix but this time a 355 with a separate wire feed, that meant I could drive up to the boat, take the wire feed out and that gave me 10m reach and then I had the further 8m of the push pull.

One thing I asked before is what thickness of Alu you will be doing. The reason I asked is because with a standard Mig I would avoid doing any sheet work below 4mm and definitely 3mm was the minimum I would ever attempt in sheet form as spray transfer just does not lend itself to any thinner. The pulse Mig however has no such issues, you can go right down to 1mm without issues.

 

[Robertshetland]

@Hood thanks for the detailed reply, to be honest the lowest i would be going to would be 4mm, wouldn't be using MIG for anything thinner than that. (Would be in TIG territory in my mind) but i have just looked at a couple videos regarding this Pulse Mig thing and it does look easier. just expensive to get a decent set up, the boat designs im planning on using are all minimum 4mm for the wheelhouse etc and maximum 6mm for the hull and sides etc. so just need something that can weld that range and well really.
thanks for all the help by the way, much appreciated.

 

[Hood]

As I said the MTS255S worked well as a standard (non synergic, non pulse) Mig and I would still have been using it if I had not gone to the pulse Mig.
I trialled out a wee Cebora pulse Mig, it did some nice welds and up to 6mm with ease but its down side was 2 roll wire feed and no options for a spool gun or push pull and a 3m torch was definitely its limits and it took me back to the good old days of birds nests.

Not sure about the PicoPulse as I have never used one, don't think it can use a push-pull or spool gun but that dodgy guy down South or @Jim Davey as he is sometimes called, will know.

 

[Jim Davey]

Phil Weeks at Warrior Welding do a single phase 230v pulse mig that would have the capacity you’d be after. They sell direct so I can’t quote you but look them up, I’m sure they would get you exactly the setup you need.
If you had 3 phase I could recommend a dozen options that would do everything you want but the restrictions of 230 volt limit the choices to about 1.

 

[Hood]

BTW the biggest advantage of a good synergic mig is you can set it up to your liking and then you never have to go back to the machine to alter things for different positions or thicknesses etc as you only need to wind the pot on the push-pull/spool gun and the voltage adjusts accordingly.
As I said the MTS255S didn't work well in synergic mode for Alu and there was no adjustment of the synergic lines to get it working well and that was its downfall for me as if I was 8m away from the welder down in the hull of a boat it meant I had to clamber out to adjust the voltage more often than not.