Advice on dry sumps, Peugeot XU

[Barking Mat]

@8ob , I can see your point, but he's twice won the world championship, I was phoning America last week trying to confirm turbo stats for him. He really knows his stuff. His machine shop is spanking. His motor assembly shop is beyond spotless. Normally its the Nissan v6 which they get nearly 400hp out of, and when his dad said we've got nearly 700hp from a pug 2l I was doubtful, but he does seem to know what he's doing.

I don't think he even drinks, let alone pub horsepower.

 

[Jim Davey]

Pace do a Peugeot dry sump kit.
You could also try Think Automotive in Isleworth.
You'll need at least two scavenge pumps, one at each end of the sump, a feed pump, plumbing, a custom sump, brackets to mount the pumps and pulleys adding for the drive belt and an oil tank plus an oil cooler if you don't already have one.

 

[Barking Mat]

Well yes it is bespoke kit, and the lead time on it is at least 3 weeks, if they can supply that dry sump. Few motor racing teams use pugs I'd imagine. He's been let down by a company, and I'm looking for alternatives. And knowing the wide and varied knowledge on this forum I thought I'd throw it out. Why does it have to be a dry sump, I don't know I'll ask him when he's back on Monday. He's off motor racing with his team. But he has two engines, with surface treated cylinders etc waiting to be assembled and he's being right p#ssed about sadly by British companies, and he doesn't speak English, and I'm his neighbour at work. That's where I'm coming from if you follow.

 

[PhillipM]

3 weeks is fast for a dry sump lead time to be honest, they're not exactly big sellers so you're often waiting until there's enough orders on the books to cast a batch of pans. Loads of teams race with XU's, they're used in quite a lot of stuff, just not often dry sumped. If it was me I'd buy a Pace pump, tank, etc, and then just fabricate the sump pan with a scraper plate if he's in that much of a rush for one.

 

[Barlidge]

@Barlidge some very bespoke companies, kind of looking for off the shelf stuff, or at least a company which has stock.
Yes I was looking around the 2 grand mark. Once again its not for me, 2k gets me a posh car, not a sump and oil pump.

As Phillip says below, there really very little 'off the shelf', its virtually all put together to order. I would think Pace Products would come closest for your Pug, I have spoken to them and they are fully approachable but they would need all the engine specs to put a system together for you. VAC used to do a 'Kit' for the BMW M60 lump that I'm using but that was around the 3k mark before import charges

To be honest, apart from very few massively popular cars/engines (Escorts, XE's, K20 etc), most dry sumps are exactly that, a bespoke kit tailored for the car, usually made to order even if they list a kit.

 

[Barking Mat]

@Jim Davey, two scavenge pumps?

Here's what I've learnt this afternoon /eve:

A dry sump sucks the oil out of the sump via pipes to a reservoir and then pumps it under pressure, more pressure than normal to give extra lube.
A dry sump is special and costs about a grand if you can find one, and then if then can actually supply one, (Ze problem), the oil pumps are pretty off the shelf unless you require a special bespoke pump.
The sumps the main problem to find.
Yes there are massive fan driven coolant and oil coolers in the back, and on some PDF FAQ's I read a section on pressure release or something oil related.

I do diesel engines. My lawn mower and strimmer are petrol, that's it.

 

[Barking Mat]

Sorry the time it takes me to write these replies and eat at the same time.......

 

[500e]

Try welshpug

 

[Barking Mat]

That's where I was.....@Jim Davey, 2 scavenge pumps... One off the sump and one off the reservoir? No you said each end of the sump, hang on I'll try to look up the specs of the pumps we were looking at this afternoon.

 

[PhillipM]

It doesn't need to be more pressure, it can be the same, the main thing is without oil being stored in the sump the engine can be mounted lower, and with the oil stored in a tank it can be narrow and tall and full of baffles to stop the oil sloshing around compared to a large flat sump pan. Which means much less chance of sucking air in (a properly designed tank will also swirl the incoming oil around on the inlet to remove any dissolved air). The scavenge pumps, because they're only running at low pressure, can cope quite happily with air and foam coming through from the sump, whereas the pressure pump supplying to the engine under high load only ever then gets a good, clean supply from the tank itself.

Normal pumps for that size engine run 2 scavenge pumps sucking from either end of the sump, and one pressure stage* to supply the engine, it should be enough. If you look at my project thread on the buggy there's quite a few pictures of the setup in there as its dry sumped.


*These are all part of the same 'single' pump body - they're modular.

 

[Barking Mat]

At power.com was where I ended up, really nice bloke, but three week leads. His site doesn't work correctly on a tablet, but its posh stuff.

 

[PhillipM]

AT Power is the pump I have.

 

[Barlidge]

@Jim Davey, two scavenge pumps?

Here's what I've learnt this afternoon /eve:

A dry sump sucks the oil out of the sump via pipes to a reservoir and then pumps it under pressure, more pressure than normal to give extra lube.
A dry sump is special and costs about a grand if you can find one, and then if then can actually supply one, (Ze problem), the oil pumps are pretty off the shelf unless you require a special bespoke pump.
The sumps the main problem to find.
Yes there are massive fan driven coolant and oil coolers in the back, and on some PDF FAQ's I read a section on pressure release or something oil related.

I do diesel engines. My lawn mower and strimmer are petrol, that's it.

They are not separate pumps but multi stage (multiple pumps in one body driven off the same shaft), you generally have one pressure stage which pumps the oil from the reservoir to the engine and normally between 2 to 4 scavenge stages which collect the oil and return it to the reservoir, filter and cooler normally in the circuit somewhere as well.

 

[Barking Mat]

@PhillipM, thank you, its all a bit beyond me so thanks for explaining it.

Multi stage pumps hence the 1,2, or 3 nozzles on the top?

What's short and long nose incidentally?

I'll start to sound like I know what I'm talking about next time I see him.

Keep it coming good folks.

 

[Barking Mat]

It was just at's sitemap which doesn't work on a tablet, 3 stage magna pump and a sump. From speaking to them they seem to make it all on demand.
Incidentally, when you're waiting to be transferred the music, 'orbital' the grey album, if that means anything to anyone, opus iii, if i recall. I digress.

 

[Barking Mat]

@500e do welshpug have a site, I see YouTube and forums of very technical ongoings.

 

[PhillipM]

Long or short nose is just that - the length of the nose that the pulley attaches to, to space the pump the right distance back to wherever you're mounting it.

 

[Barking Mat]

Thanks @PhillipM, have you got a link to your airborne buggy?

 

[PhillipM]

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/some-buggy-pics-for-baloo.31655/

There's also some pictures of the pump late on in there somewhere where I replaced a faulty nose bearing if you want to see the insides, and also tank fabrication, drive belt mods, and other bits and pieces.

 

[Barking Mat]

Give me 5 minutes.......