Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[daleyd]

I’m not sure that discharge rates are an issue - in normal driving how often do you use full throttle in an ice vehicle? I’m not a slouch and I can say almost never, and the vast majority of the time in this car the power-o-meter just hovers around under 1/4 for probably 95% of the time. Even the worst case scenario I can think of, holding 70-80 mph up a steep motorway incline doesn’t need anywhere near full power…and ours is the lowest powered version with a 0-60 time north of 10 seconds.

The miles per kW figure doesn’t really change, no different to how my average mpg in my ice car doesn’t change. Yes there are obviously differences in day to day figures, but as an average it’s pretty constant. The biggest change is winter to summer, with summer being around 3.4 miles and winter around 3.

The 9.5 p overnight tariff is open to anyone with a ev from octopus energy. It’s not tied to any pcp deal, or anything to do with the purchase of the car. We got offered this at the height of the price hikes so hopefully it may even come down again There is a Cheaper one if you have a charger that can communicate with the energy supplier where you get variable times with a cheaper rate, but we don’t have one of these.

 

[daleyd]

Oh and yes, many manufacturers will recommend charging to 80% (I think they are covering their behinds and ensuring their long warranties won’t be invoked) but that’s a recommendation for day to day driving. It’s a setting in the car/app so when we charge it overnight for day to day use we set it at that figure, we are off to the other end of the country again with 2 adults 2 kids, luggage and a dog when the missus gets back from work tonight - so last night I set it to charge to 100%.

I don’t see that as being any different from warnings from an ice manufacturer not to mash the throttle into the carpet when cold…

It’s another thing that sounds like a massive problem, but in reality it makes no difference, other than about 5 seconds to tell the car where to charge to.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Youll need your connection checked by your dno too, when you install a charge point at home

I'm scared to ask...but what's a "dno".....and is it expensive

The situation I'm in with the electricity supply is....I have a 10mm cable on a dedicated circuit that was installed 12 years ago when we had a new consumer unit. That cable runs to an accessory box on the wall by the drive where it terminates (a nice bit of forward planning hopefully).

I'm not keen on a dedicated EV smart charger at the moment....because I can foresee problems with people simply plugging in and using it!...it's London and I know exactly what people are like here!

So instead my plan is/was to install a 32a socket within a lockable cabinet...I'll then use a 32A to type2 converter cable to charge the car.

This is just the initial setup...maybe I'll go to a smart charger in future to better control when the car charges etc (to get the cheapest tariff)....but for now I was thinking this would work fine?

 

[cheb]

DNO is Distribution Network Operator.

 

[daleyd]

I'm scared to ask...but what's a "dno".....and is it expensive

The situation I'm in with the electricity supply is....I have a 10mm cable on a dedicated circuit that was installed 12 years ago when we had a new consumer unit. That cable runs to an accessory box on the wall by the drive where it terminates - basically I saw a future need for an EV!

I'm not keen a dedicated EV smart charger at the moment....because I can foresee problems with people simply plugging in and using it!...it's London and I know exactly what people are like!

So instead my plan is/was to install a 32a socket within a lockable cabinet...I'll then use a 32A to type2 converter cable to charge the car.

This is just the initial setup...maybe I'll go to a smart charger in future to better control when the car charges etc....but for now I was thinking this would work.

Most chargers you can lock when not in use.

DNO is basically the electricity network company, for us Scottish power. Note this may be different to you actual energy supplier! Similar to how you may buy your broadband from Sky but BT maintain the network.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

DNO is Distribution Network Operator.

Cheers...starting to sound more complicated than I was hoping!

I guess the question is....if I'm installing a 32A socket on a wall what do I need to do and is that different to installing a dedicated EV charger?

I was just hoping to connect a 32A socket to the existing dedicated 10mm feed and that would kind of be it really...but now I'm wondering if theres more that needs to be done?

I've got a mate who's an electrician....time for a phone call me thinks!

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Most chargers you can lock when not in use.

Ah that makes sense...via your phone app?

 

[daleyd]

Ah that makes sense...via your phone app?

Yes some you can - we have an early one that doesn’t have any connectivity so ours is old fashioned with a lockable flap!!

 

[GRW]

You clearly don’t read posts properly. I wrote that DC charging was most efficient and fastest between those values. Charging rate, outside those values (particularly above 80%) is much reduced by the BMS. That means (as I said, to anyone who knows more than naff-all about BEVs) the fastest time between two distant points (using DC charging) is to charge between 20-80%. This, of course, may require charging stations actually on the route (not requiring long detours).

I am perfectly happy, if needed, to charge my vehicle to 100% (with my AC charger) on the occasions it is required. On the four DC charging events (in 5 months) I have only needed one charge to make my journey to home - where I can charge at my leisure. Last week I needed about 70 miles range to get home. I added 107 miles in ~14 minutes and arrived home with thirty+ miles range remaining (just in case a steady hospital trip was needed). The previous fast charge left the car with 40 surplus miles - which were (most of it) needed for a hastily arranged hospital appointment.

30 miles range would not be sufficient if a trip to the hospital was required at high speed. My smart meter is currently ‘dumb’ regarding data transfer (apparently failed to transmit data after 11 months and they won’t fix it); I ‘should‘ be reading the meter monthly, according to the electricity supplier, but I was assured (before I opted for the smart meter) that I would never need to read the meter ever again. It is now a case of them manually reading the meter, ‘cos I won’t.

Sorry (to most) re all the brackets, but clearly needed for those that try to cherry-pick to create arguments which are, frankly, just a sign of a conspiracy merchant (no need for names to be mentioned), irrelevant and with no value whatsoever.

What's the curve on a typical L-ion battery on an x-y? My experience is yes with Lead-acid.... but the reason (apart from longevity) is that the flattest part of the curve (I.e. where you get the least voltage drop for a given load is (you've guessed it!) between 20% & 80%.
Below 20% & voltage plummets & damage starts. Between 100% & 80% & again voltage decreases sharply to 80%, where the curve flattens.

Consequently (as that's the battery happy range & where its most efficient. You want the most bang for buck, & look after your battery, then that's where you need your battery to live.

Now... given the advice for EV charging is pretty much identical to best practice for lead-acid cells.... that suggests their performance curves aren't all that different.

However - you still appear determined to consider that I haven't a clue, cannot read properly, and am a bit thick. I think that I cam demonstrate that I'm not totally in the dark, and do have a few brain cells scampering about.

I think that simply because I'm not on the EV train & IMO are not "the answer" to all transport for all of us, while you do.... you're looking to discredit anything I say by any means possible (including inferring that I'm totally ignorant & clueless.
Basically you just don't like my opinion.

BTW.... you've come out with enough things that aren't quite correct - to demonstrate that you don't fully understand the subject yourself - and are compensating with bluff & bluster.

You have my deepest sympathies for your personal situation & that of your wife - & I can understand that this cannot be helping one bit.... but I do think you might try winding back on the condescension & rudeness a tad?

 

[GRW]

Just grabbed this off the Web.
Yep, the discharge curve shape of a L-ion battery is very similar to a deep-cycle lead acid battery.
Sojust as an intelligent lead-acid charger will ramp-down charge current to stabilise voltage (aka Absorption period) - then the BMS on an EV system is doing pretty much the same thing.
In fact the lead-acid chargers I was programming would only auto-charge to 80% (& cut off load before damaging discharge levels) unless the user manually did an override to charge to 100% (known as an Equalisation or "Gassing" Charge as a periodic maintenance task & to alleviate electrolyte stratification & sulphation of the charge plates immersed in the solution).

So overall, so far its not looking so different in behaviour (or in the way you charge & use) to me.
Everything so far still indicates to me - that Fast-Charging a L-ion battery isn't best practice.

 

[daleyd]

Cheers thats good to know...is that easy to setup with any provider?...it's a 64kwh battery so I make that £6.80 per 270 miles?

Petrol prices really annoy me because they just seem to charge what they can get away with...I can't wait to be free of that nonsense!

Sorry just seen this question.

Yes, it wasn’t difficult at all. You will need a charger - you can’t just install a 32a socket though! I think all new chargers have to have some sort of connectivity required, some you can link to your providers app and you get longer off peak Charging hours at a lower rate, but the times can be variable when grid demand is the lowest - you will be guaranteed a certain amount of hours so if you are ok with putting the car on charge at night then you should be quids in.

On ours we didn’t have this as it was a dumb charge box, with no internet connection. So we are stuck with a fixed hours tariff from 0030 to 0430 at 9.5p. It sounds restrictive but we’ve never needed to top up outside these hours, and that’s for probably 12-13000 miles per year. And that’s only topping up a couple of times a week generally. 4 hours a night adds around 120 miles on a 7kW charger.

Bear in mind that you generally don’t need to treat it like a petrol car, where you run it until you need to fill up. When my missus gets back from work every few days we just plug it in, takes about 10 seconds. Our driving pattern is such that we can do this because we know we can run it down and not need the mileage, but if you have unpredictable journeys then just plug it in every night and it’s full ready to go. We’ll generally let the range run down to about 80-90 miles then plug in.

Range anxiety - first time we drove it, we became paranoid looking at the range meter. For about 3 days, then after the initial nervousness it just doesn’t even register any more. For long journeys there are apps that show you where charging stations are, and whether they are occupied or broken etc. There’s no point me sugar coating the fact that if you regularly do long journeys (ie longer than the range of the vehicle) then an ev probably isn’t the best choice, but we have done longer journeys in ours and it’s been pretty painless to be honest. Convenient as an ice? No, but also just a matter of some simple forward planning can make it very unobtrusive.

There’s no doubt that it is an issue, and hopefully it will improve but even now it’s not unworkable. Of course if you drive 700 miles each day, across the arctic towing a trailer uphill both ways then you might have a different outlook

Despite what some people would have you think I’m no ev evangelist, if it was rubbish I’d say so, and if it wasn’t working out I’d have no problem going back to a petrol car. I can only give you my experience of owning one, which has been overwhelmingly positive, with some caveats.

Undoubtedly they won’t suit everyone, but some of the things that I hear and read about them just don’t match up with what I’ve experienced. We bought ours with no environmental agenda, or preconceived ideas - in fact we had pretty much ruled out buying one before we went. We just liked the space, comfort, quietness and economically it made sense. As ever, what is our situation won’t be the same for everyone.

 

[Maker]

Watts is the internationally recognised SI unit of power and therefore demands a capial letter, not lower case abbreviation.

By that logic, seconds, metres and litres should be capitalised too, but they're not.

The symbol for a watt is capitalised because it's someone's name (James Watt), like how joules and amps are J and A, but a gram is written as g not G, because it's taken from a Latin word, not from a name.

 

[My Old Landy]

We have three diesel vehicles but we are looking at replacing the Kuga with an EV. We hope to do a few weekends away and when not working from home my commute is only 28 miles round trip.
I can no longer work on my vehicles so getting an EV will make no difference to maintenance.
The cost is irrelevant really, for me it will be about comfort and ease of use.
I certainly don't have a 'green' agenda, my 1987 Ninety is is testament to that but not having to drive several miles to the nearest fuel station to fill up is appealing
It will probably be a second hand one (Hyundai Ineos) as they seem quite good and sub 20k for three years old.

 

[daleyd]

Just grabbed this off the Web.
Yep, the discharge curve shape of a L-ion battery is very similar to a deep-cycle lead acid battery:

View attachment 414419

What you access as part of the usable range of the battery doesn’t include the top and bottom % of the total battery capacity. So you’re effectively never allowed to start running the battery down below the point where it would damage the battery, and you can’t charge it to the point where it would damage it - that isn’t available to use. Given the sophisticated battery management systems they have it’s frankly inconceivable that they would allow you to do this.

Given they are offering 8-10 year warranties is it possible that they would allow you to run the batteries to such a state where they would be damaged and they might be liable to have to replace them? I appreciate they would do their utmost to wriggle out of it but it’s not very likely they would intentionally leave themselves open to that sort of process, or the loss of reputation/sales that might come with it.

EVs Explained: Battery Capacity, Gross Versus Net

Automakers quote their EV battery capacities in kilowatt-hours, but be careful when comparing across makers: not all capacities are the same.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[GRW]

View attachment 414421

What you access as part of the usable range of the battery doesn’t include the top and bottom % of the total battery capacity. So you’re effectively never allowed to start running the battery down below the point where it would damage the battery, and you can’t charge it to the point where it would damage it - that isn’t available to use. Given the sophisticated battery management systems they have it’s frankly inconceivable that they would allow you to do this.

Given they are offering 8-10 year warranties is it possible that they would allow you to run the batteries to such a state where they would be damaged and they might be liable to have to replace them? I appreciate they would do their utmost to wriggle out of it but it’s not very likely they would intentionally leave themselves open to that sort of process, or the loss of reputation/sales that might come with it.

EVs Explained: Battery Capacity, Gross Versus Net

Automakers quote their EV battery capacities in kilowatt-hours, but be careful when comparing across makers: not all capacities are the same.

www.caranddriver.com

I think that's pretty much just what I already said!
The charge curves I've seen (& that are in the manuals for the chargers of lead-acid traction stuff) mirrors the L-ion curve in shape (the numbers will of course be different, as they will be with other cell types like Ni-Cad which have a higher charge voltage than Lead-acid).

High fast-charge rates though....Still suggest that doing this isn't the best for the battery long term. I suspect the monitoring system will record & file every charge - how long and at what rate.... & the cynic in me knows that if a punter were to fast-charge regularly & then have a battery fail - that this will then mitigate or invalidate some or all of the warranty (read the small print etc which no-one does cos it'd take a week!)

Is the EV Battery warranty a Pro-Rata warranty (like the industrial traction packs are)?
I'd be surprised if they'd missed that clause out.

 

[willie.macleod]

High fast-charge rates though....Still suggest that doing this isn't the best for the battery long term. I suspect the monitoring system will record & file every charge - how long and at what rate.... & the cynic in me knows that if a punter were to fast-charge regularly & then have a battery fail - that this will then mitigate or invalidate some or all of the warranty (read the small print etc which no-one does cos it'd take a week!)

Is the EV Battery warranty a Pro-Rata warranty (like the industrial traction packs are)?
I'd be surprised if they'd missed that clause out.

You can rapid charge no problem at all without it affecting your battery warranty. Consumer protection law would take a dim view of consumers being expected to understand and carefully monitor charge curves!

Yes battery warranties may be pro-rated, in practice those that have had replacement packs have found in some cases they got a new pack or in others individual faulty cells were replaced.

 

[bricol]

I’m not sure that discharge rates are an issue - in normal driving how often do you use full throttle in an ice vehicle?

Weeellllllll . . .

Nearly every roundabout most mornings Only up to 60mph - which does seem to confuse/upset other road users - they pass me on the dual carriageway before, they then brake 4 miles too soon, I sail past them, round the roundabout, and enjoy myself on the exit . . . repeat for the next three round abouts There are some green plated vehicles that the drivers, by the third roundabout, are deploying much more energy than the previous two as they come whooshing past

This morning I was making nice rumbly V8 noises up through the manual gears . . . the rest of the week it was high powered 4-cylinder Rover noises as I enjoyed the benefits of over 400bhp/tonne

 

[daleyd]

I think that's pretty much just what I already said!
The charge curves I've seen (& that are in the manuals for the chargers of lead-acid traction stuff) mirrors the L-ion curve in shape (the numbers will of course be different, as they will be with other cell types like Ni-Cad which have a higher charge voltage than Lead-acid).

High fast-charge rates though....Still suggest that doing this isn't the best for the battery long term. I suspect the monitoring system will record & file every charge - how long and at what rate.... & the cynic in me knows that if a punter were to fast-charge regularly & then have a battery fail - that this will then mitigate or invalidate some or all of the warranty (read the small print etc which no-one does cos it'd take a week!)

Is the EV Battery warranty a Pro-Rata warranty (like the industrial traction packs are)?
I'd be surprised if they'd missed that clause out.

I don’t know is the short answer - really unless you are in the know about lithium ion chemistry and suchlike anything else is just guesswork. Comparing it to lead acid and making assumptions about any similarities just seems a bit pointless given they are vastly different technologies.

Also, given li-on isn’t entirely new (albeit in different applications) I think there’s enough real world data about for manufacturers to go on to decide they will last in ev use and how best to set up things like BMS to extend their life.

 

[GRW]

I don’t know is the short answer - really unless you are in the know about lithium ion chemistry and suchlike anything else is just guesswork. Comparing it to lead acid and making assumptions about any similarities just seems a bit pointless given they are vastly different technologies.

Also, given li-on isn’t entirely new (albeit in different applications) I think there’s enough real world data about for manufacturers to go on to decide they will last in ev use and how best to set up things like BMS to extend their life.

I'm afraid I'm not as trusting as you - I'm more cynical.
Experience has taught me that whatever they can get away with, they will (& they have VERY expensive Lawyers to ensure they get away with a lot more than we ever will).... so I tend to look out for what information & detail they DON'T supply, rather than what they do supply.
The golden rule is.... if its not specifically included always work on the basis that its left out on purpose, & for reasons that aren't to your benefit .

 

[slim_boy_fat]

I'm afraid I'm not as trusting as you - I'm more cynical. realistic.

FTFY.