a frame towing

[Justme]

The problem is the term "We Believe"
If you read all of the link they state at the end only a court can decide so you are left in a bit of a limbo with a potential fine etc depending on how good your legal team is

Who will put your before the court?

Yep the DVSA (the new VOSA) or the Police.

As both work from the same crib sheet you wont end up in court if you follow their beliefs.

 

[winchman]

Courts would look at case law, Construction and use regs and a few other bits
If you take the time to read this it raises a few other questions?
What would you put on the chassis plate as it wants to be a car and a trailer?
http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t65796-0.html

 

[Justme]

Trailer dont have to have a weight plate.

If no plate is fitted the combined tyre load index codes are used.

They must have a makers plate / serial number.

I would think that most proper A frames come with a weight rating they are suitable for.

PS I see nothing of note in that link. Its all my mate said & hopes & wishes.

 

[Bill Edwards]

The problem being if stopped how are you going to show this now modified Car or is it a trailer? Confirms to construction and use regs?
My point being it is a mine field that could catch you out

It's not really any different to the common inertia systems used on trailers. The weight of the trailer pulls rods or cables which go to the trailer brakes whereas the A frame also pulls a cable which attaches to the car brake pedal which of course then does its thing. I think you'd probably find the average copper would have no difficulty seeing how that system works as it's remarkably simple.

You will probably have better brakes than about 95% of the ordinary trailers we see on the roads!

 

[winchman]

Trailer dont have to have a weight plate.

If no plate is fitted the combined tyre load index codes are used.

They must have a makers plate / serial number.

I would think that most proper A frames come with a weight rating they are suitable for.

PS I see nothing of note in that link. Its all my mate said & hopes & wishes.

Page 18 of the IVA regs state a plate must be fitted and all the stuff that should be on it. Now I might be wrong but could a trailer and a car have two plates s it is trying to be both?
The purpose of the link is to show just what a mine field it can be, once we have some case law to reference it will be easier

 

[winchman]

You will probably have better brakes than about 95% of the ordinary trailers we see on the roads!

You only have to look at the stuff that turns up at the tip to see why we now have IVA for trailers.
The plot thickens if you end up in court how would you even begin to prove the braking calcs are correct and can be obtained?

 

[chriskelland]

Do you have warning triangles reflectors?


Its the one thing most people miss if they dont use a trailer board.

Yes and I remove the number plate and replace it with a duplicate plate of the towing vehicle.

 

[rcx132]

Just another point, it was said right at the beginning that an A-frame could be legal for cars under 750kg as don't need all the axles to be braked then. But no one pointed out that the 750kg is the gross limit, so the A frame must be plated to 750kg and the car and A-Frame can't weigh over 750kg.

Also, there never having been a court case doesn't mean there wasn't a prosecution. Just means no one argued.

 

[chriskelland]

I think this summarises the main points.

The UK department for transport and/or it's Agencies recognise a towcar on an A-frame as a trailer.

Therefore a towcar is a trailer and must comply with European trailer legislation.
These include:

• UNECE Regulation 55 for couplings,
• UNECE Regulation 13 for braking and
• Statutory Instruments Road Vehicle Lighting Regulation 1989 No.1796 and its amending directives for lighting requirements.

UNECE Regulation 13 was effective from November 2014, and is the legislation that most traditional A-Frame systems struggle to meet. There is also many small technicalities, of which can cause many systems to be non compliant.

The biggest two requirements are:

• You must achieve a minimum of 50% braking efficiency across all four wheels.
• If the trailer has power/vacuum-assisted brakes then the system must be operable.

I think that the introduction of the EU trailer regulations and their incorperation into UK law is what is causing most of the confusion. I recall using an Intertrade A frame
20 - 30 years ago under the complicated recovery and transport rules when we worked on British domestic hours and log books. There are still hangovers about but the EU trailer regs have made things a lot easier for owners and operators.
Incidentilly trailers have to be plated and all parts type approved since 2014, but only new trailers.

Chris.

 

[normspanners]

Aside of the legalities these A frames can be lethal, unless there is a good bit of weight on the rear of the tow vehicle they are very prone to jackknifing . Happened to me on a petrol forecourt doing less than 5mph, ok with a decent truck or van but I would not use one on a car towing another car.

Bob I think I can answer with fair comment here as someone that has done a lot of mileage with recovery A frames because the RAC AA used to use them a lot and in fact was A bar'ing a broken down zafira from holyhead some 70mls home on sunday with my passat. I believe they handle far better than any trailer I have used, no snaking and you do forget they are there in fact.
I regularly stop and check the straps for the first 5mls or so and I have only had a problem once when a guy unbeknown to me AFTER we had done 8Mls to his house had removed the ign key of his transit to work the zappa and replaced it... but not fully ! whilst I was on the phone for 15secs ! I set off and went 4mls before the first 90 deg right hander when the lock kicked in! just had to be on a bend over a railway bridge... hum now THAT that was interesting, actually bent the towball on my delica , OK an accident and the fault was not the Abar but the stupid driver of the tranny. I got the bill though btw, as the rig driver. I only had a couple of cars that didnt like following, a very large bmw sticks out because I had to do 30mls round trip to get the recovery truck. GUTTED !
Also the reversing thing I have hardly any problem reversing and can reverse into my drive at 90 deg to the road with a car on A bar . ok you cant just lock over like a trailer but I can get it where I want it without issue, far better it seems than a lot of peoples efforts with a std trailer !! it just needs a little thought.
And I have also had literally thousands of cars delivered to my garage for onward recovery by rac on A bars. none with any horror stories.
I honestly dont think they are a bad TOOL ----its the TOOLs that use them !! thats the issue.

 

[rcx132]

I think this summarises the main points.

The UK department for transport and/or it's Agencies recognise a towcar on an A-frame as a trailer.

Therefore a towcar is a trailer and must comply with European trailer legislation.
These include:

• UNECE Regulation 55 for couplings,
• UNECE Regulation 13 for braking and
• Statutory Instruments Road Vehicle Lighting Regulation 1989 No.1796 and its amending directives for lighting requirements.

UNECE Regulation 13 was effective from November 2014, and is the legislation that most traditional A-Frame systems struggle to meet. There is also many small technicalities, of which can cause many systems to be non compliant.

The biggest two requirements are:

• You must achieve a minimum of 50% braking efficiency across all four wheels.
• If the trailer has power/vacuum-assisted brakes then the system must be operable.

I think that the introduction of the EU trailer regulations and their incorperation into UK law is what is causing most of the confusion. I recall using an Intertrade A frame
20 - 30 years ago under the complicated recovery and transport rules when we worked on British domestic hours and log books. There are still hangovers about but the EU trailer regs have made things a lot easier for owners and operators.
Incidentilly trailers have to be plated and all parts type approved since 2014, but only new trailers.

Chris.

I like the simple and concise gov.uk explanation.... don't use A-Frames except for recovery!
I'm really grateful to the giv.uk site that they've taken the initiate to clear up all these things. The A-frame argument has been going on on forums for a long time and can be pretty much put to rest now.

 

[armalites]

I havr an ex AA Intertrade Solomatic 25B with the brake system on it, bought it cheap at auction along with a solid bar. Very nicely made setups and probably cost a fortune new. I bought one for a friend at the same time and he's towed a car all the way from Ireland to Hereford no issues(other than the potential legal ones). I've used mine to move stuff around the yard but not used it on the road.

The term recovery I guess will be argued as recovering a road legal broken down vehicle which makes sense and it would be sensible if it said maximum of 50miles or something.

 

[rcx132]

I havr an ex AA Intertrade Solomatic 25B with the brake system on it, bought it cheap at auction along with a solid bar. Very nicely made setups and probably cost a fortune new. I bought one for a friend at the same time and he's towed a car all the way from Ireland to Hereford no issues(other than the potential legal ones). I've used mine to move stuff around the yard but not used it on the road.

The term recovery I guess will be argued as recovering a road legal broken down vehicle which makes sense and it would be sensible if it said maximum of 50miles or something.

A friend was once stopped for driving his jeep with one wheel an odd size. Police didn't know how to deal with it. They radio'd in for advice and were advised that it's legal to drive with an odd size wheel to recover the vehicle. The police advisor told the officers to check if my friend had the original wheel in the car. He had the wheel. They then told him, OK but you are to go straight home.

Seemed sensible. So I think if you can explain yourself and have something to back it up then you're ok. With mobile phones it should be easy to show texts or communications that back up your story that you're recovering the car.

 

[Bill Edwards]

You only have to look at the stuff that turns up at the tip to see why we now have IVA for trailers.
The plot thickens if you end up in court how would you even begin to prove the braking calcs are correct and can be obtained?

I don’t know how you’d prove it without paying an expert but it would be a minimum efficiency that’s required which I would expect to be well over.
If you rigged up a vacuum hose to get servo effect you would probably be about 99% efficient! Very little effort is required to stop/lock up a servo’d car.

Just another point, it was said right at the beginning that an A-frame could be legal for cars under 750kg as don't need all the axles to be braked then. But no one pointed out that the 750kg is the gross limit, so the A frame must be plated to 750kg and the car and A-Frame can't weigh over 750kg.

Logically the lower plated weight would be taken so it needn’t matter what the frame says (assuming it’s higher of course) because it’s only a part of a drawbar. It’s common to have plates on different parts of a trailer, hitches are a good example. You should be fine with a hitch rated at 3500 that’s fitted to a trailer with a maximum gross of 2500.

I think my comment about towing a car under 750 is probably wrong though because although a trailer of that weight doesn’t require brakes if they are fitted they’d need to work.

 

[Justme]

Page 18 of the IVA regs state a plate must be fitted and all the stuff that should be on it. Now I might be wrong but could a trailer and a car have two plates s it is trying to be both?
The purpose of the link is to show just what a mine field it can be, once we have some case law to reference it will be easier

Your right it looks like they have added the weight to the plate.

Its in this EU act http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:008:0001:0013:en:PDF

As ever these things are constantly changing & its hard to keep up even when like me you try to.

Not sure if that would apply to the car / trailer in question as it would depend on build dates.

 

[Justme]

Just another point, it was said right at the beginning that an A-frame could be legal for cars under 750kg as don't need all the axles to be braked then. But no one pointed out that the 750kg is the gross limit, so the A frame must be plated to 750kg and the car and A-Frame can't weigh over 750kg.

Also, there never having been a court case doesn't mean there wasn't a prosecution. Just means no one argued.

No no it cant.

IF brakes are fitted they MUST work.

 

[winchman]

I don’t know how you’d prove it without paying an expert .

That would be for you to prove and pay for

 

[chriskelland]

That would be for you to prove and pay for

That is why there is very little case law. When the AA started using spec lifts plod tried to prosecute a number of patrols for a number of offences, the big one being driving un licenced. The way they saw it was that the vehicle on the lift was a trailer and the pivot on the boom made it into an articulated trailer and needed a full Class one (now a B+E or a C+E). The AA's lawers pointed out that they were wrong
and would fight the procecution to the High Court and make case law out of it. realising how much this would cost they backed off quite quickly. Things are different now with the EU involved and a whole recovery industry out there now. I think the first one I drove was a Bedford Hydolift probably about 78-79.
Same thing with A frame towing, UK says it's OK most places in Europe say it isn't until there is case law we will never know. By the way the insurance company is really good with no questions.

Chris.