a frame towing

[chriskelland]

I tow a Skoda Citigo behind my Peugeot Boxer 3.5 t M/home, GTW 5.5 t. Law says it has become a trailer and has to conform to the EU law as a trailer. So, it has a brake pump & controller fitted to the car to duplicate the braking effort of the Boxer. All the lights are duplicated and work with the Boxer. Only grey area is that the EU law says a trailer must be capable of being reversed, but does not say how far! With my outfit if you are in a straight line the castor angle does not cause any problem for about 50 metres. Perfectly legal in UK, but france has interprited the same law in a different way and says it is not legal.
so you will be stopped and told to uncouple and use a second driver.
Must say the outfit handles well with no problems.

Chris K.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

It is annoying when people use the argument, "the Police saw me and didn't say anything so it must be legal". Or "everyone does it so it must be legal", both of these have been used in this thread.

That's funny because I've gone back over the thread and I can't see that stated anywhere!

 

[rcx132]

That's funny because I've gone back over the thread and I can't see that stated anywhere!

Post #9 and #11 ツ

 

[Wendelspanswick]

You need to read my post again as no where do I state it's legal:

I must see at least 2 or 3 a week while driving round Somerset so either the police are not prosecuting or there must be a loop hole.

My observation was as lots of people are towing cars behind campervans and as the general consensus seems to be it's illegal then my only conclusion is that people are willing to risk it because the police are not prosecuting (can't be bothered) or there is a loophole which makes it difficult to prosecute. Neither of those arguments are saying its legal.

And in Composimminites post he said the police made no comment on the fact that he was using an A frame, again no mention of it being legal.

 

[Cobbler]

There have been various articles in the motor caravan mags about A frame towing, & the conclusion was no-one knows whether they are legal or not. I think it was MMM magazine that approached VOSA & got the answer that it fulfilled the requirements of a trailer, BUT there has never been court case to prove it one way or the other. Until this happens there will be a grey area & it could go either way

 

[8ob]

Aside of the legalities these A frames can be lethal, unless there is a good bit of weight on the rear of the tow vehicle they are very prone to jackknifing . Happened to me on a petrol forecourt doing less than 5mph, ok with a decent truck or van but I would not use one on a car towing another car.

Bob

 

[rcx132]

There have been various articles in the motor caravan mags about A frame towing, & the conclusion was no-one knows whether they are legal or not. I think it was MMM magazine that approached VOSA & got the answer that it fulfilled the requirements of a trailer, BUT there has never been court case to prove it one way or the other. Until this happens there will be a grey area & it could go either way

If the Gov.uk website says it's illegal then the police probably believe the same. So they're going to give points + fine. You can of course decide to be the first person to argue in court but you will probably loose. And if you cause a lethal accident with your A frame then it won't be points + fine, it will be a different level of penalty.

I think that there are exceptions when towing a broken down vehicle, which is why an A frame might be legal then.

I personally don't want any more confrontations with the police. I drive specialist vehicles that are difficult to insure so I don't want points either.

 

[Justme]

I tow a Skoda Citigo behind my Peugeot Boxer 3.5 t M/home, GTW 5.5 t. Law says it has become a trailer and has to conform to the EU law as a trailer. So, it has a brake pump & controller fitted to the car to duplicate the braking effort of the Boxer. All the lights are duplicated and work with the Boxer. Only grey area is that the EU law says a trailer must be capable of being reversed, but does not say how far! With my outfit if you are in a straight line the castor angle does not cause any problem for about 50 metres. Perfectly legal in UK, but france has interprited the same law in a different way and says it is not legal.
so you will be stopped and told to uncouple and use a second driver.
Must say the outfit handles well with no problems.

Chris K.

Do you have warning triangles reflectors?


Its the one thing most people miss if they dont use a trailer board.

 

[rcx132]

You need to read my post again as no where do I state it's legal:

My observation was as lots of people are towing cars behind campervans and as the general consensus seems to be it's illegal then my only conclusion is that people are willing to risk it because the police are not prosecuting (can't be bothered) or there is a loophole which makes it difficult to prosecute. Neither of those arguments are saying its legal.

And in Composimminites post he said the police made no comment on the fact that he was using an A frame, again no mention of it being legal.

Sorry, I misunderstood then.

 

[rtcosic]

I tow a Skoda Citigo behind my Peugeot Boxer 3.5 t M/home, GTW 5.5 t. Law says it has become a trailer and has to conform to the EU law as a trailer. So, it has a brake pump & controller fitted to the car to duplicate the braking effort of the Boxer. All the lights are duplicated and work with the Boxer. Only grey area is that the EU law says a trailer must be capable of being reversed, but does not say how far! With my outfit if you are in a straight line the castor angle does not cause any problem for about 50 metres. Perfectly legal in UK, but france has interprited the same law in a different way and says it is not legal.
so you will be stopped and told to uncouple and use a second driver.
Must say the outfit handles well with no problems.

Chris K.

Sorry to burst your bubble but that does not a rigid drawbar trailer make. To be a twin axle rigid drawbar trailer there is a limit to how far apart the axles can be - and no car has that short a wheelbase.

Not a grey area at all, perfectly clear.

No need to quibble about non-automatic reversing brakes, nature of the brake actuation, location of the handbrake etc.

Your licence, your risk

 

[winchman]

From my days in the 4x4 world this was often a hot topic, its whole can of worms and after extensive looking I did find the chapter and verse.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/408927/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf

Just consider this.
If a trailer weighs less than 750KG ladened it won't have brakes, but if it has them fitted they must work with the correct force so a car weighing say 700KG has brakes so they must work with the correct effort so how would you make them work correctly of you are towing said trailer / A framed car? Remember if they are servo assisted the assistance must continue to work when being towed.
Obviously the reflectors will be in correct on the back of the car because its now a trailer?
I use done for a few years and never had any issues but to be honest now I am older and wiser I wouldn't.
If you follow the link above you really need to give good thought to this statement

"Ultimately it is the interpretation off the law is a matter for the court"
Remember this is a government department telling you one thing then saying well its up to the court which basically means it depends on how good a legal team you can afford.

A typical example of a company marketing A frames.
https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/2/
The above tells you how to tow with an A frame and how to basically miss represent your car.
1. You will not be towing a motor vehicle. You will be towing a car that is converted to a trailer.
That complies with all European trailer legislation. That is identified as a trailer by the
reflective triangles, the towing vehicles numberplate, the brakes operated solely by braking
in the towing vehicle, and the lights duplicating that of the towing vehicle.

I wouldn't like to try and defend that one in court
They then add a disclaimer!

Disclaimer:

The information provided on this website is to the best of our knowledge correct as of August 2017. Information is provided to help customers with their queries and should not be relied upon for legal representation. We recommend that anyone needing accurate and up to date legal information, contact the relevant governing bodies directly.

The Gov bodies will then tell you its up to the court.
So basically I would use a trailer
I notice none of the people selling them offer an exact link to the sections of
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/introduction/made
To show how they meet them.

 

[winchman]

So the soap box is out.
Lets say you go to a country requiring a Carnet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATA_Carnet
Would you have one for a trailer or a car? Would they see it as potential fraud, hiding value etc??

 

[fizzy]

It is annoying when people use the argument, "the Police saw me and didn't say anything so it must be legal". Or "everyone does it so it must be legal", both of these have been used in this thread.

Yes but there are plenty of things that are illegal but common practice. The law really is an ass(donkey)!

 

[Justme]

but if it has them fitted they must work with the correct force so a car weighing say 700KG has brakes so they must work with the correct effort so how would you make them work correctly of you are towing said trailer / A framed car? Remember if they are servo assisted the assistance must continue to work when being towed.

The servo only reduces the force needed at the pedal for the puny human. As the over run brakes will have all the weight of the car to push on them they dont actually need the servo to work to full power.

 

[Bill Edwards]

Brakes can be linked, there are frames out there which do this using inertia with a cable from the drawbar to the brake pedal.

 

[winchman]

Brakes can be linked, there are frames out there which do this using inertia with a cable from the drawbar to the brake pedal.

The problem being if stopped how are you going to show this now modified Car or is it a trailer? Confirms to construction and use regs?
My point being it is a mine field that could catch you out

 

[normspanners]

Recovering a road legal broken down vehicle with a driver in the towed vehicle.

I very often reverse into my drive with a car on the A bar just the odd time you have to get out and correct the steering of the towed vehicle, the car being towed needs to be a broken down vehicle so should be therefore taxed and insured and doesnt need a second driver, in fact when I recovered an ambulance full of mentally impaired people, that could not be safely transhipped the RAC insisted that NO ONE be behind the steering wheel or in the drivers seat to make it legal.

 

[normspanners]

Sorry to burst your bubble but that does not a rigid drawbar trailer make. To be a twin axle rigid drawbar trailer there is a limit to how far apart the axles can be - and no car has that short a wheelbase.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/408927/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf

“A”- Frames When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer

 

[winchman]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/408927/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf

The problem is the term "We Believe"
If you read all of the link they state at the end only a court can decide so you are left in a bit of a limbo with a potential fine etc depending on how good your legal team is

 

[normspanners]

But if that document is produced by the DOT for reference, then surely that is what the court would refer to also, if you had used that as YOUR reference where else would the courts look ?
They will probably have paid someone a lot of money to write that resume who has been allowed the time to read though all relevant doc and make that decision as to what IS legal.
they then have to put that disclaimer in case that person has made a slight blunder or typo.

NOTE:The information in this document is a summary of the Departments understanding of what the law requires. However, ultimately the interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts based on individual facts of any particular case. You are therefore advised to consult the relevant legislation and, if necessary, seek independent advice

if you have followed all the adviso's in doc this surely means you have gone as far as you can to ensure you are legal.
once again the law is not ----the law