6011 rods

[spaffmonkey]

Evening all

I'm fancying giving some 6011 rods a go after seeing there potential better for tacking as deeper penetrating.
Ive never actually tried them before as I'm normally using 6013's or 7018's on the narrowboat repairs.
Any recommendations on brand of rods that are better than others in your opinion.

 

[Turbo]

Check your welder can run them first. It takes a special program to use them on inverters and not many uk welders have it.

 

[spaffmonkey]

Check your welder can run them first. It takes a special program to use them on inverters and not many uk welders have it.

Ah I thought it was the 6010's that needed specific settings. I'd be using a jasic 250 might or r-tech mig on the arc setting and neither have additional arc settings.

 

[Turbo]

Ah I thought it was the 6010's that needed specific settings. I'd be using a jasic 250 might or r-tech mig on the arc setting and neither have additional arc settings.

You could be correct.
I know my rtec mig will run 7018s really nicely.

 

[Popcorn]

6010's do need specific settings and a suitable welder.
6011 we're designed for inverters that 6010s won't run on iirc

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

6010's do need specific settings and a suitable welder.
6011 we're designed for inverters that 6010s won't run on iirc

6010 is a cellulosic rod specified for DC only, 6011 is a cellulosic rod specified for AC and DC.

Both types of cellulosic rod are typically described as requiring a high OCV to run correctly, traditionally around 90V recommended for 6010, and 80V for 6011 (i.e. the higher voltage tap on an oil cooler transformer).

The received wisdom is that 6011 will generally tolerate (not like, but tolerate) lower OCV's better than 6010... This is certainly true in terms of starting them, but they will still run poorly on lower OCV machines.

However, when you read different manufacturers spec sheets for Cellulosic electrodes these days, they often give much lower OCV requirements than the traditional 80-90V, and anecdotally I have been able to run some Nikko C10 rods fine on an inverter with a 60V OCV...

Everlast welders used to have an article about why this is somewhere, and it boils down to the fact that historically electrode manufacturers's gave OCV (which is easy to measure, and is on the sticker on the back of the welder) as a proxy for what the actual requirement is, the maximum sustained voltage during welding (which is more complex to measure and normally as a graph or table in the welder manual).

Everlast were of the opinion that Cellulosic rods required a machine capable of sustaining about 28-30V arc voltage, whilst Rutile & Basic/LH electrodes only required around 20-24V.

Some inverters can sustain those voltages despite a lower reported OCV, whilst others cannot. What you need to look for is the static characteristic graph, or data table of the welder, usually in the manual.

If we compare a Migatronic Focus Stick 161E, and a Lincoln Bester 170-Nd...

The Migatronic has an OCV of 80V, and can sustain an arc voltage above 30, all the way to it's maximum output, should run any Cellulosic rod it has the amps for just fine.

The Bester comes in flavours with both 95V and 71V OCV, but neither can actually sustain the arc voltage that a cellulosic rod demands (in fact the unit with 95V has worse arc voltage) so you might start a 6011 ok, but both 6010 or 6011 will run pretty poorly.


As an additional comparison, for an inverter that's kinda "marginal" I looked at the manual for the Rallymig 161i multiprocess welder I own.

Here we see it can provide the 80V OCV for Cellulosic rods, but as you increase the current above about 90A, the arc voltage starts to dip below 28V.

So it will happily run a 2.4mm 6010 rod all day, but if you want to run a 3.2mm 6010 you will reach the limitations of the welder's arc voltage well before you max out the amperage suitable for the rod.

Those theoretical numbers correlate pretty well with my real world experience using it too.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Annoyingly neither of your welders gives much data in the manual to help you, and your best option is probably to buy the smallest possible pack of rods and have a crack.


The Jasic 250 (JM-252C) circled in red gives an OCV and a vague indication of the output voltage:

Given the OCV of 52V, and the maximum output voltage of 29V, it's probable that it would struggle to start or run cellulosic rods in MMA mode.


The RTech Mig (assuming you have the very popular MIG180) doesn't give any output voltage characteristics, but does give an OCV:

With the OCV of 75V it would probably start a cellulosic rod just fine, but without trying there's no knowing how well it would run them, as it could just as easily behave like the Bester above, or like the Rallymig.

 

[spaffmonkey]

Annoyingly neither of your welders gives much data in the manual to help you, and your best option is probably to buy the smallest possible pack of rods and have a crack.


The Jasic 250 (JM-252C) circled in red gives an OCV and a vague indication of the output voltage:
View attachment 511564
Given the OCV of 52V, and the maximum output voltage of 29V, it's probable that it would struggle to start or run cellulosic rods in MMA mode.


The RTech Mig (assuming you have the very popular MIG180) doesn't give any output voltage characteristics, but does give an OCV:
View attachment 511565
With the OCV of 75V it would probably start a cellulosic rod just fine, but without trying there's no knowing how well it would run them, as it could just as easily behave like the Bester above, or like the Rallymig.

Wow thank you for your time with such a in-depth response. Although I've been arc welding for around 15 years I never realised how little I know about the details and specifications of arc welding and rods. It has certainly sparked my interest in understanding and learning more now. Now you have explained it so well it makes vastly more sense now thank you.
Although I do have the r-tech 180 I tend to use the r-tech 250 mig for the arc welding.
I think I shall be researching specific arc welders over the coming weeks.