3d printed conrods

[DAPPH]

I am getting old and prefer a nice steel forging to plastic.

I am old ......69 yrs young in 21 days time , I will work in any material including cotton & silk . not tried shiny rubber though ........ yet .

 

[8ob]

Nothing really new here, plastic engines were about in the 70`s. I remember experimental cart engines with plastic barrels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_automotive_engine

Bob

 

[stuvy]

Jeeps have Bakelite pistons there carp

 

[brightspark]

Just Enough Essential Parts then

 

[ronan]

Jeep is now owned by FIAT and their stuff has gone to hell in a handcart.

 

[Kayos]

Just Enough Essential Parts then

Or Just Enough Equipment Provided

 

[Tom_ERST_S2]

My arguement would be why aren't F1 using them?

apparently NHRA top fuel and funny cars run carbon rods now. They look nothing like these thought from what I’ve seen. Bear in mind the life span of a top fuel engine is about five seconds at full chat and it doesn’t matter what the rods are made from. What matters is thousandths of a second over the quarter.

cheeRS

Tom

ps I reckon we do t know half of what F1 have inside a power unit. But my guess is carbon rods wouldn’t have the service life required by the regs so my guess is they use titanium con rods.

 

[graffian]

apparently NHRA top fuel and funny cars run carbon rods now. They look nothing like these thought from what I’ve seen. Bear in mind the life span of a top fuel engine is about five seconds at full chat and it doesn’t matter what the rods are made from. What matters is thousandths of a second over the quarter.

Got any pics or links?
I saw a recent pic from kallita of a pile of BME rods. No idea how long this lot is for, probably a few meetings at a rough guess. I think they used to buy a few hundred sets a year!

 

[Tom_ERST_S2]

no idea if these are also real but it's the only time I've found anything to do with composite rods. it wouldn't surprise me if the top teams kept the internals super secret squirrel; I would if it meant an unfair advantage on the track.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2018/11/pushing-the-boundaries-carbon-conrods/

and a selection of F1 rods and pistons here. very surprised to see a current v6 turbo spec rod and piston, I'd have thought they were closely guarded by the factories even if it is five years old. May be that it's not what it is purported to be though....

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27372

cheeRS

Tom

 

[slim_boy_fat]

Nothing really new here, plastic engines were about in the 70`s. I remember experimental cart engines with plastic barrels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_automotive_engine

Bob

In the recesses of the grey matter I seem to recall a chap coming up with a 'sealed' ceramic engine which required no ongoing maintenance - iirc Shell bought from him the rights to the 'secret' of the material used and quietly destroyed the details.

 

[8ob]

Got any pics or links?
I saw a recent pic from kallita of a pile of BME rods. No idea how long this lot is for, probably a few meetings at a rough guess. I think they used to buy a few hundred sets a year!
View attachment 202328

Dragster lumps run horrendous strokes and piston speeds, older F1 short stroke engines despite buzzing to 20,000rpm have slower piston speeds than drag engines running at 7000rpm. I suppose the drag engines piston speed combined with the massive piston/rod/crank weight must reduce longevity by a huge margin.

Bob

 

[sako243]

I'm not that surprised that a printed carbon conrod can be lighter and stronger than a classically made one. In a prior job I went on a tour on one of the company's R&D areas. They'd built a metal 3D printer the size of a warehouse and were experimenting with 3D printing some odd things. The real benefit that 3D printing has is that you can build structures that are not possible to cast or machine in the more common sense.

In this particular application they could add reinforcing lattices within the structure which kept it nice and strong but didn't occupy much volume. The equivalent part using classic machining / casting would have required 3 or 4 times the material to make the outside shell strong enough for their purposes.

 

[Tom_ERST_S2]

I'm not that surprised that a printed carbon conrod can be lighter and stronger than a classically made one. In a prior job I went on a tour on one of the company's R&D areas. They'd built a metal 3D printer the size of a warehouse and were experimenting with 3D printing some odd things. The real benefit that 3D printing has is that you can build structures that are not possible to cast or machine in the more common sense.

In this particular application they could add reinforcing lattices within the structure which kept it nice and strong but didn't occupy much volume. The equivalent part using classic machining / casting would have required 3 or 4 times the material to make the outside shell strong enough for their purposes.

Yeah true enough re the hidden structures etc but I'll be honest I don't know enough about 3d printing of carbon fibre to decide whether it is possible or not. I'm erring towards not based on a few things here, firstly the origin of the pictures. That bunch in Greece are well known to produce out right lies to cause a stir in the car world. Secondly, carbon fibre needs the weave structure laying up right to attain the desired strength to weight else it's just as fragile as glass given the wrong stress loading. Take a look at the /Drive video on youtube showing the Koeniggsegg carbon wheels. It also needs curing in an autoclave else it just doesn't work. thirdly, from what I remember from my training (18 years ago now) carbon fibre does not really stand unto heat well. The epoxy generally fails and then it just goes flimsy. A prime example of this was the underside of the flaps on a Harrier GR7. They had heat resistant epoxy but the heat from the jet pipes reached around 900 Celsius and simply cooked it over time until it delaminated.

I'm not saying carbon fibre can't work as there are far more clever people than me that will make anything work but I just don't believe that THESE rods are either real or would work if they were. I'll stick with my WRC spec I beams for now.

cheeRS

Tom

 

[cheb]

In the recesses of the grey matter I seem to recall a chap coming up with a 'sealed' ceramic engine which required no ongoing maintenance - iirc Shell bought from him the rights to the 'secret' of the material used and quietly destroyed the details.

Why would Shell do that? Do they make so much more selling oil than petrol? ISTM like the old engine that runs on water myth, an oil company bought the patent, destroyed it, and killed the inventor too. Except you can still find the patent online

 

[slim_boy_fat]

Why would Shell do that? Do they make so much more selling oil than petrol? ISTM like the old engine that runs on water myth, an oil company bought the patent, destroyed it, and killed the inventor too. Except you can still find the patent online

I have no idea why, it was about 55 years ago and I was like a sponge for information back then, as now - clearly some has leaked out in the interim.

 

[Farside]

In the recesses of the grey matter I seem to recall a chap coming up with a 'sealed' ceramic engine which required no ongoing maintenance - iirc Shell bought from him the rights to the 'secret' of the material used and quietly destroyed the details.

Nothing new about the concept of the ceramic engine - hell, even I thought of it in umm... 1972. I immediately realised that then-current oils couldn't possibly cope with the temperatures internally, given that the whole point of the ceramics was to raise the thermal efficiency by an order of magnitude compared to contemporary engines. Ceramic or not, there needs to be some lubrication, else it self-destructs in short order.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

Nothing new about the concept of the ceramic engine - hell, even I thought of it in umm... 1972. I immediately realised that then-current oils couldn't possibly cope with the temperatures internally, given that the whole point of the ceramics was to raise the thermal efficiency by an order of magnitude compared to contemporary engines. Ceramic or not, there needs to be some lubrication, else it self-destructs in short order.

Interesting, so I may not have imagined the concept.... Could whatever lube might have been used, been recirculated through a highly efficient cooler system, then?

 

[Farside]

Interesting, so I may not have imagined the concept.... Could whatever lube might have been used, been recirculated through a highly efficient cooler system, then?

You could cool it all you like, but at the sharp end it's just far too hot. Even today's oils might not be able for it.
With the ongoing advent of a more-than century-old technology as the Next New Thing (electric cars), there is no real point in pursuing a ceramic engine now, I think.
Even if it could be made to work reliably and the somewhat challenging aspects of forming, machining and prototyping an engine which could then be mass-produced, the costs would be astronomical for very little gain now.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

You could cool it all you like, but at the sharp end it's just far too hot. Even today's oils might not be able for it.
With the ongoing advent of a more-than century-old technology as the Next New Thing (electric cars), there is no real point in pursuing a ceramic engine now, I think.
Even if it could be made to work reliably and the somewhat challenging aspects of forming, machining and prototyping an engine which could then be mass-produced, the costs would be astronomical for very little gain now.

Thanks .

So I can throw these blueprints in the bin, then.....

 

[DAPPH]

Why would Shell do that? Do they make so much more selling oil than petrol? ISTM like the old engine that runs on water myth, an oil company bought the patent, destroyed it, and killed the inventor too. Except you can still find the patent online

The patent covers the idea in as many aspects as possible but it does not describe the process . Going back to 1966 & my engineering apprenticeship as a full time technical apprentice at the army apprentices school , some of our tutors were former Rolls Royce design people . They told us of an engine that could run on water , the information being held by RR. . It was also touched up on again in 1974 when I was on the first class trade course during our multifuel engines phase .

So I wouldn't be too adamant about dismissing the idea.​

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Thanks .

So I can throw these blueprints in the bin, then.....

No NO , Send them to me & I'll give you a couple of beer tokens . I have some friends who would like to frame them for decorations on their big office wall .
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