Again fronius verses Kemppi

[henry Kadzielski]

Good morning to all.
I have had Essetti query 350 machines for some time (15 years +) and all thought they have and do produce acceptable results, the finish is not what I have seen being produced by a Frounis 270TPSi. The 270TPSi has also been around for many years (I am assuming with developments in software). I have had a play on a job site with a Fronius 270 TPSi and found my finish is much better, so the question need to be asked.
Is there no better machine, I forgot to mention I mainly do alli and stainless, or is there equivalents. I have seen demos on the Kemppi doing S/S using 'Wise Fusion' giving tig like finish, which was quite a suprise. I need to get a Tig like finish in all positions with alli and S/S.
I will be going to get demos and get to try, if I can them my self. I must try for myself, I now know the results that I am looking for and which machine will give me the best result.
There may be other machines that can give exceptional results and any suggestions would be appreciated.
I am looking for people with experience with both machines, the Kemppi if I can remember was a fastmig pulse 400amp.

 

[Jim Davey]

I'm of the opinion that Kemppi is behind Fronius, EWM and Lorch in terms of equipment and weld quality. I have experience of Fronius and EWM, I've been a sales partner for both, Fronius previously, EWM currently and I've seen nothing from Kemppi that makes me think I chose the wrong firm to sell for. Lorch is not a machine I'm overly familiar with but they are showing up on my radar and what I've seen impressed me.
The fact of the matter is that any of the 3 makes above can show a Kemppi a clean pair of heels if operated correctly. And as all of them can do what you want the main deciding factor will be cost and availability of service/tech support and ongoing spares costs.
What makes are supported locally, and how expensive is the support?

 

[henry Kadzielski]

Thankyou for that Jim. I have not seen a Kemppi the pulse mig do alli, so I will be wanting a demo and to do some setup and welding my self. I expect the same from the Fronius mob. The sheer expence of these machines or any other similar products is justified. If they do not want to do live demos then they do not want to sell a machine.
I have had a short run on a 270TPS about 5 years old, I am assuming not with the latest tech. However has there been much improvements made. I am in Queensland on a job at the moment (alli boat) and the fronius 270TPS is what every one is using. Seem to be the machine to have, however it seems to be illogical as to this is the only equipment out there capable of doing the job. People buy things to work based on 'if Joe down the road is using this equipment and it works for him it will work for me. Bad assumption, it is the capability of the operator and the ease of setup to get the desired result.
So again thankyou for the reply, but in the real world how easy is the setup of Fronius to get the desired end result, how difficult is it to see the results you are getting and understand the changes required. Making that change to get the desired result is what it is all about. Now the Fronius (320TPSi) is what I am looking at, however there is the 'CMT' and how beneficial is that. How is the Fronius in doing S/S. I have seen the Kemppi with 'wise fusion' do stainless almost like tig.
My essetti query 350 which I have two weld Alli OK but not the the finish of what I have experienced with the 270TPS. I cannot do vertical up and get the finish of the guys using the Fronius 270 TPS. Their finish is almost tig like, this is the finish I want. I have played with the essetti machines have got my (AS1665 group 2 all position ticket) with the essetti but the finish is not what I would like.

Both Fronius and Kemppi are located within 2hrs from my location (in Sydney) so over the phone is quite easy. It however depends on the knowledge of the person on the other side of the phone. Unfortunately you don't get to find out before the purchase exactly what they are like. Since one purchases a machine from a distributor there should be at least phone support and or some form of training given. We do not pay a premium to have the door shut in our face after the sale is completed!

 

[Richard.]

I don't think you'll go far wrong with either brand and as far as the metal going on to the job is concerned both will have an offering of a fancy pulsed Mig that will give you the appearance you want!
Favourites.. Well yes I have one but I'm speaking from tig machine usage I'm afraid so it's not a comparison of what your looking at but a comparison on the brands I've experienced and it's Fronius. They are a cut above imo I've owned or used acdc tig units from all the brands mentioned above by Jim and Fronius sits firmly at the top of that list. Now I'm sorry I cannot compare pulsed migs so how much use this is to you I'm not sure. Kemppi are very good and the machines are very good quality with lots of toys on them to play with. I certainly would not put them behind the EWM or Lorch or even Fronius from a build quality of machine PoV because I have seen just as many Kempis last the test of time as I have any others but I would say they don't like to make things that easy for you. Kemppi interface and usage panels on ALL there equipment is not the easiest to get to grips with. Infact neither is the modern Fronius stuff tbh. Lorch have this better than the other 3 imo and Miller are light years ahead of the lot where logistics of usage are concerned. I could find pluses and negatives for them all day. You need to try them out and make your mind up on demo because all those brands will serve you well. I will say though Fronius is by far the most expensive.

 

[henry Kadzielski]

Thankyou for your reply Richard.
From what I have inquired so far yes the Fronius is the most expensive. As long as 'you get what you pay for' I'm OK with that. I have also played with different plasma cutters and how own A Hypetherm PM125. This PM125 makes the HF start, transformer type 150amp machine look stupid in comparison. Yes I will be getting demos on both and other 'equivalent' machines available here. I will spend the funds but only want to spend it once wisly. Am also hoping that whom I get the machine from will also provide pointers, feed back and direction. Am hoping that these people don't just know the sale brochures.

 

[Richard.]

Thankyou for your reply Richard.
From what I have inquired so far yes the Fronius is the most expensive. As long as 'you get what you pay for' I'm OK with that. I have also played with different plasma cutters and how own A Hypetherm PM125. This PM125 makes the HF start, transformer type 150amp machine look stupid in comparison. Yes I will be getting demos on both and other 'equivalent' machines available here. I will spend the funds but only want to spend it once wisly. Am also hoping that whom I get the machine from will also provide pointers, feed back and direction. Am hoping that these people don't just know the sale brochures.

Good luck with your ventures. I'm confident any of those brands will have a tool just for the job.

 

[henry Kadzielski]

Richard Thankyou for your input.

 

[matt1978]

Hi Henry, the "welding like Tig" you refer too would be done by a Pulse on Pulse process any many manufacuatures have their own take on it. Fronius call it SynchroPulse and I would assume that it certainly would be available on the TPSi and is not exclusive the the Kemppi unit. However as with everything all is not equal and you would have to run them head to head to gauge which one will suit you and your application best.

One point I would make however is that the TPSi is very new to market, maybe 18 months or so. Don't confuse it with the TPS range which was produced for around 10-15 years. The TPSi has a new housing, inverter module, user interface etc etc, it's all completely new and the only simerlarities to the TPS range you refer too would be the name and the colour.

 

[henry Kadzielski]

Thankyou for that Matt1978.
I am aware that the TPSi is the new version with touch screen, I have played with a TPS2700, which is 10 - 15 years old as you say. You would think that other manufacturers would have come up with equivalents by now. At the ship yard that I am at at the moment, there is only one machine being used and it's the TPS2700. I cannot get an answer other that this is a good machine and everyone is using them.
Matt just for your info the boys using these machines produce 'tig' like finish in the vertical up position just by the movement of the torch. I have heard the double pulse and they were not using it. My essetti machines have double pulse, but I have not used it ever. Probably not in the same league as the fronius. Even kemppi has utube video of their double pulse, and there would many more manufacturers with the same. From one guy here who i buying another machine the older 2700, as the consumables on the TPSi are also different.
I will make direct contact with the suppliers next day or two, to get some details and costings, however wanted to get as much background info as possible so I can at least appreciate somewhat what they tell me and possibly wade through any BS that they may through my way.

 

[cianh91]

I had the fronius tps320i out on demo and it was fantastic couldn't fault it but before we bought we got a kempact 3000pulse in and the only thing I found with fronius it's a lot more user friendly with the touch screen kemmpi is a harder machine to set out of the box but once you get used to it it's fine the small amount better the fronius was didn't condone the price difference . First time I welded aluminium with the kemmpi I couldn't believe how easy it was and the finish is perfect

 

[henry Kadzielski]

Thankyou for that cianh91
This is the feed back that I am looking for, first hand comparisons. The fronius that you had on demo, was if fitted with any special programs and for that matter is the kemppi?. What material are you welding and what gauge? How long ago did you have the demos, have you tried it on S/S and if so how was the result.
Finally what was the price difference between the machines.

 

[Jim Davey]

The big plus Fronius has over Kemppi is reliability, they just seem to last longer, this is why you find so many in production roles as they rarely fail. Ok, when they do it's not usually something cheap or simple, but Kemppi aren't renowned for cheap parts or easy servicing either. I personally think that's worth paying a premium for rfeliability if you intend to keep the set a long time. I've had five TPS4000 on the hire fleet for over ten years and they've needed almost nothing in the way of parts. I deal with a lot of Kemppi customers in this area and the general opinion is they don't make them as robustly as they used to.

 

[henry Kadzielski]

Good morning Jim.
I have to ask, do you have any familiarity with the latest offerings from both. The reason I am asking is that both these machines have representation here in Au, so some of the other EU makes do not. I do want to get something that I can ring someone locally and get a answer on during normal business hours.
I have contacted one of the local distributors but have not had a reply yet, hope this is not a omen.
I do intend to keep this machine for some time, the essetti's are now 17 years old and there has been no upgrades or changes here in Au for many years. These machines are now obsolete. As I have mentioned before the essetti's still put down a good weld in Alli in the down hand position and the overhead is fine too, however vertical up I just can't seem to get right. The fronius 2700 I tried made this look easy, probably just some setting which I am missing. The original importers of these machines don't have anyone that known what to do and or what to change to get the desired result. I tel them the problem I am having, I know what I must do, but how to do that one one can tell me. Not very handy.
So this has now brought me to my current situation, upgrade to what seems to be the fronius, but must try for my self on Alli and S/S. Fronius also is pushing their 'CMT' is there any real world practical uses. I do at time alli to steel on vessels and being able to join the two directly seems very interesting, however what is he catch, as there has to be one. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Jim Davey]

What thickness Alu are you wishing to weld to steel? I know EWM have done it for Audi and VW. But I don't know what maximum plate thickness the process will work at.

 

[Appyasme1]

The big plus Fronius has over Kemppi is reliability, they just seem to last longer, this is why you find so many in production roles as they rarely fail. Ok, when they do it's not usually something cheap or simple, but Kemppi aren't renowned for cheap parts or easy servicing either. I personally think that's worth paying a premium for rfeliability if you intend to keep the set a long time. I've had five TPS4000 on the hire fleet for over ten years and they've needed almost nothing in the way of parts. I deal with a lot of Kemppi customers in this area and the general opinion is they don't make them as robustly as they used to.

Also Jim,they do not do a Service Exchange pcb.I don`t know why.Yet they want you to send them the fauty pcb for evaluation!Makes me wonder what happens to the faulty pcb

 

[Jim Davey]

Hardly anyone does service exchange PCBs now.

 

[cianh91]

It was only last summer I tried both and tried it on m/s from 2mm upto 20 alu 1.5 upto 6 or 8 not sure which ss was upto about 4mm just as trial . As regards reliability we have 2 Kempis probly older than me that haven't missed a beat and still used regular by the apprentices customer care for us is second to none not that we've needed any warranty work just soon as we needed anything wire liner etc perfect service

 

[henry Kadzielski]

Good morning gentelmen, and thankyou for your replies.
Firstly cianh91, did you get the tig like finish in all positions with the S/S and alli and can you remember the price difference of the two machines. Does your kemppi have any additional software installed.
Jim the thickest that I can foresee to join steel to alli is 6mm. Just to clarify max 6mm alli to steel. From you comment it seem that this ability is not limited to fronius.

 

[cianh91]

Finish on alu was perfect outa the box like tig ss took a tiny bit of adjusting but was sweet after done t joint corner joint butt weld etc all lovely was about 2600 difference after adding water cooled to kempi for fronius without. Water cooling

 

[henry Kadzielski]

Thankyou for that cianh91
I am assuming he 2600 is in pounds?,also assuming for alli you used kemppi's push pull gun?. Now for S/S did the kemppi have any additional software installed. About 4 years ago I had a demo on a kemppi, can't remember exactly what machine it was, but it was 400amp, with separate wire feeder, fitted with 'wise fusion'. This guy welded down to 1.6mm S/S with tig like finish, however at that stage apparently it only was working with 'their' own consumables. The machine required 'their' 1.0mm mig wire. Is this still the case.
I do appologise for the baggering and the questions, but I am in a need to know situation.
Thankyou for your input.