Looking for info about the controls of an old industrial MIG welder

[Gerula]

I found this old workhorse for sale and electrically speaking it's quite good. However there's no manual (obviously ) and nothing printed on the side panels either. The control for wire speed is easy to figure out but other 3 left me a bit puzzled.

Does anyone know what are these buttons supposed to adjust? Thanks a lot for any info.View attachment 75841

I'm guessing that the one at the right can switch between continuous and pulsed welding and the ones at top and left can set various parameters when in pulse mode. Am I right?

However I don't know what option 2 on the right button is supposed to do?

 

[mike 109444]

The three position switch on right selects "NORMAL" "STITCH" and "SPOT" . The black knob controls that have 1 to 10 adjust the time ON for the SPOT and the STITCH
And Welcome BTW Gerula

 

[mike 109444]

See also this manual page 13 onwards (not for that welder but same sort of controls).

 

[Gerula]

Thank you Mike .

This looks like a rather competent MIG welder (certainly more competent then me). Had a look inside it, looks like no one touched the electrical side since it left the factory. Of course the wire feed&pistol require a major overhaul but that's something well within my current capabilities.

Asking prince is the equivalent of 150 quid or 250 for the complete package with a rather new (1 year, papers included) 10lt bottle plus a regulator with a glass indicator. Seems a bit expensive for something of this age (probably 20+ years) but again these features don't come with the cheap welders that I've been previously used. So...

Ah, the major downside appears to be that the wire is live as soon as you turn on the machine, without pressing the button on the pistol.

 

[mike 109444]

Thank you Mike .

This looks like a rather competent MIG welder (certainly more competent then me). Had a look inside it, looks like no one touched the electrical side since it left the factory. Of course the wire feed&pistol require a major overhaul but that's something well within my current capabilities.

Asking prince is the equivalent of 150 quid or 250 for the complete package with a rather new (1 year, papers included) 10lt bottle plus a regulator with a glass indicator. Seems a bit expensive for something of this age (probably 20+ years) but again these features don't come with the cheap welders that I've been previously used. So...

Ah, the major downside appears to be that the wire is live as soon as you turn on the machine, without pressing the button on the pistol.

I would say there is a fault then !
Live at turn on is usually only found on VERY basic hobby type welders as in cost reduced. By not having a contactor or heavy duty relay the cost is reduced.
Is this machine being industrial suitable for your mains supply. In the UK most industrial migs are 3 phase 415v or 220v but homes have only single phase 240v. Is this machine 3 phase or single ?

 

[Fazerruss]

That looks identical to my migatronic ( I added the white rocker switch for a cooling fan)

 

[Gerula]

It is 3 phase Mike, forgot to mention it. The table printed on the lower left says it works with 3 phase going from 220 to 500v. I have access to 3 phase (220V) very close to my home so I was considering the purchase.

Fazerruss, yours looks virtually identical, only this one has no brand whatsoever (just a sticker of a retailer from a German speaking country). Do you happen to have a manual for it? . Is the live wire normal for this model?

 

[Fazerruss]

No the wire should not be live. The manuals are available free on line, that's where I got my copy.
To give you an idea of age I bought my machine second hand 24 years ago and I looked just as rough and beat up then! I reckon it's about 30 years old but I have to say mine has been and still is an excellent little machine.
Mine is single phase 240 volt

 

[Gerula]

Then I guess the electronics are different. The voltage table on mine looks like this, from what I understand out of it

it doesn't appear like it can be wired for single phase without modifications)

Can you make a photo with the voltage table on yours?

 

[Fazerruss]

I did say mine is a bit rough!

 

[Gerula]

I wish the panel on the one I'm considering looked this rough and had the same inscription

Does the manual that you have also cover the 3 phase version?

 

[Fazerruss]

Unfortunately not. Yours may just need some wire links swapping over inside. The data table suggests it is a dual voltage machine.
Edit: just noticed the 3~ on yours so I may be wrong

 

[Gerula]

Yes, I don't think it can be wired to single phase without modifications.

I downloaded the manual from the Migatronic web site, apparently the one I was offered is the 180x version. The manual doesn't say if the wire should be live or not. Perhaps someone who has the 3 phase version knows how this one should work, if it shouldn't be live after switching the machine on then I guess the electronics are damaged.

 

[mike 109444]

BEFORE you put a plug on it and plug it in MAKE SURE you have set up the jumpers inside to match the 3 phase you are going to use !!!!!

 

[mike 109444]

Yes, I don't think it can be wired to single phase without modifications.

I downloaded the manual from the Migatronic web site, apparently the one I was offered is the 180x version. The manual doesn't say if the wire should be live or not. Perhaps someone who has the 3 phase version knows how this one should work, if it shouldn't be live after switching the machine on then I guess the electronics are damaged.

Relay or contactor faulty ?

 

[Gerula]

BEFORE you put a plug on it and plug it in MAKE SURE you have set up the jumpers inside to match the 3 phase you are going to use !!!!!

I'm afraid it's much too late for that, the guy who's selling it already used it for a while, probably without touching any jumpers. It looks like there were no issues except for the live wire thing, but that may well mean he fried something on the control board.

The manual doesn't mention anything about the jumpers, I suppose they have a table printed on the PCB of the control unit? If it's anything beyond setting the jumpers I don't think the machine is worth the trouble, as it's not that cheap and already requires service on the wire feeding part

 

[eddie49]

From the symbols on the front panel, the rotary switch on the right selects three functions:

1. Manually controlled welding by pressing/releasing the trigger switch on the torch.
2. Spot welding, the torch trigger switches on, then automatic switch off after the on-time selected by control knob at top.
3. Stitch welding, pressing the torch trigger starts an automatic on/off sequence, with on-time selected by the top control knob, and off-time by the left-hand control. This continues until the torch trigger is released.

From the data plate, the machine is 3-phase only, accepting from 200 to 500 volts AC 3-phase. It looks like the setting for 380v may have been flagged, which would be normal in most of Europe. ( Machine may have originally been in Switzerland? )
The jumpers to select these inputs will be on a heavy-duty terminal block within the machine, not on the electronic control PCB ( which will be single-phase, getting 220v phase-to-neutral, or a lower AC voltage from a small auxiliary transformer ).

If you have access to 3-phase power at your planned work location, then 150 Pounds seems a fair price for an industrial machine, even though it is really old. With the "live torch" issue ( see later ), and the wire feed needing service ( perhaps a straightforward cleaning/lubricating job ), you can maybe haggle a slight price reduction. I do not know if 100 Pounds extra for a gas bottle and regulator is a good deal, that would depend on the contract, regulations and available market for gas and bottles in your country.

Regarding the "live torch" : I assume that when the torch is live, the main contactor ( large relay, black or grey, square button on the top, closes with a loud click ) is pulled in, but the wire is not feeding, and the gas solenoid is not on? Does changing the settings of any of the timing controls mentioned above affect this fault? Does unplugging the MIG torch solve the fault?
Looking at the control PCB, can you spot any relays on it? ( Maybe in clear plastic cases, or potted black rectangles, 2 to 3 cm long. ) If so, how many relays? Any sign of burnt components?

 

[Gerula]

Hi Eddie, thank you for this very useful post.

The wire is live without pushing the button on the torch (gas solenoid off as well). All you have to do is to move the voltage selector from 0 to 1 and the wire is live, no matter what. I didn't had much time when I went to see the machine, but I did removed and reinstalled the torch's coupling (Euro connector) - it made no difference. Only has a quick look at the PCB to see if there were any obvious modifications/repairs, but I could see none.

About the voltage, I don't have 3 phase at home but at a close location nearby. If it was single phase I would have bought it already even with all the problems. It's not easy to find professional single phase machines in this price range.

 

[eddie49]

If you do go ahead and buy it, troubleshooting the "live torch" issue would probably start at the relay on the control PCB that drives the main contactor, and the auto on/off circuits which trigger that relay. Shouldn't be too difficult, even without a circuit diagram - no microprocessors or firmware involved in those days !

 

[Gerula]

Yes, that's what draws me towards these old workhorses (plus the price, of course ).