Synergic mig

[Mid Wales welder]

Good evening all. Quick question, why is it that synergic welding machine factory setting are so far out? When I fired up our new Kemppi fast mig M the other day I ended up having to take just over three and a half volts off for the given wire feed speed!

 

[HughF]

Mine's pretty much spot on... They are bound to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Also, the European programs are probably written around European gas mixtures which might have more or less argon that you were using.

 

[backpurge]

You're dead right Hugh, there are a lot of variables that will effect the parameters, if you're only having to adjust the voltage trim it isn't a million miles out

 

[Mid Wales welder]

Mine's pretty much spot on... They are bound to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Also, the European programs are probably written around European gas mixtures which might have more or less argon that you were using.

I was using M14 gas running 14 m/min wire speed 28 volts and 250 amps, but with the trim at 0 it was saying 32.6 volts! That seems like a lot more than just a little adjustment. The trim goes from -50 to +50 and I was on -28.

 

[matt1978]

Something doesn't seem right, if the gas your using is the closest match to the gas type on the synergic line of the machine then you should only have to adjust your arc trim a couple of notches either way (if at all)

Are you sure that you have the wire diameter of the synergic line set correctly? Eg it's set on 1.2 but your actually using 1.0mm

Most synergic migs will have 2 or 3 options for gas mixes when welding steel. Usually 92/8 which is a reasonable match for our Uk light mixes or 82/18 which is good for everything else. Some have 100% Co2 programme too.

If the voltage really is that far off then it's not a good sign of the quality of the synergic lines because they should be pretty accurate or else what's the point in having them

 

[Mid Wales welder]

Something doesn't seem right, if the gas your using is the closest match to the gas type on the synergic line of the machine then you should only have to adjust your arc trim a couple of notches either way (if at all)

Are you sure that you have the wire diameter of the synergic line set correctly? Eg it's set on 1.2 but your actually using 1.0mm

Most synergic migs will have 2 or 3 options for gas mixes when welding steel. Usually 92/8 which is a reasonable match for our Uk light mixes or 82/18 which is good for everything else. Some have 100% Co2 programme too.

If the voltage really is that far off then it's not a good sign of the quality of the synergic lines because they should be pretty accurate or else what's the point in having them

Yes I'm on on the right setting, Fe 1mm wire and Ar +15-25% Co2 which is what I'm using. Once I set the trim down to -28 I just left it there and when I change the wire feed speed it just stays on -28 so I don't need to touch it which means it's not a big deal, but just don't get why I had to turn it down that much anyway.
It's the MS 300 panel on the kemppi fastMig M synergic.

 

[matt1978]

Is it a separate wire feeder? Some machines have a setting in the back ground menu where you can tell it the length of Interpass hose. The longer the Interpass hose the more it compensates for the voltage dropping by having it artificially high to begin with, maybe it's something like that and the setting is wrong, like it's set on 20 meters but it's reallyb a 5m interhose.

If not and that's just the way it is, then i don't personally think that's very good. The whole point of buying a synergic mig is to utilise the knowledge from professionally written synergic lines

 

[Mid Wales welder]

Is it a separate wire feeder? Some machines have a setting in the back ground menu where you can tell it the length of Interpass hose. The longer the Interpass hose the more it compensates for the voltage dropping by having it artificially high to begin with, maybe it's something like that and the setting is wrong, like it's set on 20 meters but it's reallyb a 5m interhose.

If not and that's just the way it is, then i don't personally think that's very good. The whole point of buying a synergic mig is to utilise the knowledge from professionally written synergic lines

Yes it is a separate feeder, I will have to check that on Monday and see if that's it. Otherwise I'm stumped! If that's just the way it is then I'm not impressed, especially as it's a Kemppi.

 

[Richard.]

I've used a couple of synergic migs and they are usually pretty close +/- 1volt either way. There are people who can tap into the software and write there own synergic lines but this is dodgy stuff unless you know what your doing.

 

[matt1978]

I've used a couple of synergic migs and they are usually pretty close +/- 1volt either way. There are people who can tap into the software and write there own synergic lines but this is dodgy stuff unless you know what your doing.

If it's a good one, the Synergic line will be 100% accurate to the plate thickness that it states in relationship to the wire diameter and wire type etc. It's important to remember that on migs synergic lines are usually only applicable for welding a T-Fillet in the flat position. In my experience the manufacturer will have a test coupon for each full millimetre increment, so to say they will have a historic library of welded and more importantly tested T-Fillets throughout the complete range of the synergic line.

This obviously costs a lot of money and time but the more set points you have in a synergic line the more accurate it will be. There is extrapolation software available that will calculate the bits in the middle and sometimes because of cost cutting and time saving manufacturers will only actually physically set and input 3 or 4 points and trust the softwares judgement for the rest.

Also you have to remember the gas can make quite a difference, in Europe the standard mix is 82/18. No Oxygen, in the UK almost all of the Ar/Co2 mixes for Mig steel also include a 2% Oxygen.

But when all said and done the Synergic lines are only ever intended to be a guide for quickness when setting up. No manufacturer can allow for personal preference, welder skill, joint fit up and other local conditions.

 

[Richard.]

There is no 100% perfect synergic line matt. No matter how good the machine is the synergic line might not suit all welders preference, travel speeds or wps settings (this is why we are allowed to fine tune them)

 

[Richard.]

I was using M14 gas running 14 m/min wire speed 28 volts and 250 amps, but with the trim at 0 it was saying 32.6 volts! That seems like a lot more than just a little adjustment. The trim goes from -50 to +50 and I was on -28.

I'd of guessed somewhere in between those voltages for 14m/min (around 30v)

 

[matt1978]

Maybe I didn't qualify the statement properly.

The idea of an accurate Synergic line is that if you have three welders and one welding machine, welding for example a 6mm T-Fillet in the Flat position, if you dialed in 6mm onto the material thickness marker of the machine then each of the three welders should be able to successfully weld the T-Fillet without adjusting the power level of the synergic line higher or lower. That is not to say that one welder might prefer to weld faster and might prefer it so he has it set at 7mm and someone might weld slower so they would prefer marginally lower, But the point is all 3 should be able to use the 6mm factory setting or what otherwise what would be the point of the synergic line.

They're always has to be the possibility for fine tuning and fine adjustment, this is what I was referring to with "local conditions" welder skill level, Personal preference, Gas type, different batches of wire, length of interhoses, earth leads and torches and also the physical size-mass of the particular job which will effect the heat sync etc, but if all things are equal, if the 6mm T-Fillet was welded and tested at the factory and was proven successful then why should that setting not be applicable for someone else? This is what I mean by 100% accurate.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

If it's a good one, the Synergic line will be 100% accurate to the plate thickness that it states in relationship to the wire diameter and wire type etc. It's important to remember that on migs synergic lines are usually only applicable for welding a T-Fillet in the flat position. In my experience the manufacturer will have a test coupon for each full millimetre increment, so to say they will have a historic library of welded and more importantly tested T-Fillets throughout the complete range of the synergic line.

This obviously costs a lot of money and time but the more set points you have in a synergic line the more accurate it will be. There is extrapolation software available that will calculate the bits in the middle and sometimes because of cost cutting and time saving manufacturers will only actually physically set and input 3 or 4 points and trust the softwares judgement for the rest.

Also you have to remember the gas can make quite a difference, in Europe the standard mix is 82/18. No Oxygen, in the UK almost all of the Ar/Co2 mixes for Mig steel also include a 2% Oxygen.

But when all said and done the Synergic lines are only ever intended to be a guide for quickness when setting up. No manufacturer can allow for personal preference, welder skill, joint fit up and other local conditions.

Ah, this may be the reason it's out then. I have it set to wire feed speed and not material thickness, could this be why? When you say about the gas, if it didn't have the 2% oxygen then it would have more Co2 which would make it hotter and I would need to turn it down even more?

 

[Mid Wales welder]

I'd of guessed somewhere in between those voltages for 14m/min (around 30v)

This was working to a WPS that had been written from a weld procedure qualification that I had welded and been tested. But probably could go up to 29volts.

 

[matt1978]

Whether you work off the synergic line based on Wire feed rate, Current or Material Thickness doesn't really matter. If you alter the material thickness then the wire feed rate automatically adjusts as does the current. It's basically different ways of viewing the same information. However with the WPS only the wire feed rate will be true reading you should take note of as it is the only thing that won't change with stick out or local conditions

Also a synergic line, even a accurate one is not a replacement nor should be compared to a WPS in the sense that a synergic line is very generalised and a WPS will be written against a very specific set of circumstances for that particular company and job

 

[Mid Wales welder]

Whether you work off the synergic line based on Wire feed rate, Current or Material Thickness doesn't really matter. If you alter the material thickness then the wire feed rate automatically adjusts as does the current. It's basically different ways of viewing the same information. However with the WPS only the wire feed rate will be true reading you should take note of as it is the only thing that won't change with stick out or local conditions

So it's still not right that it's so far out even though I'm using wire feed speed instead of plate thickness? Just really strange!

 

[matt1978]

Ah, this may be the reason it's out then. I have it set to wire feed speed and not material thickness, could this be why? When you say about the gas, if it didn't have the 2% oxygen then it would have more Co2 which would make it hotter and I would need to turn it down even more?

So it's still not right that it's so far out even though I'm using wire feed speed instead of plate thickness? Just really strange!

The synergic line will give you X amount of wire and X amount of voltage for a given material thickness in MM. If the burn off rate/voltage relationship with the wire is wrong then it doesn't really matter what the material thickness says. From what I can gather from what your saying is that it's not like the arc condition is great it's just that it's too hot or not hot enough for the thickness your welding, how you've described it is that the there is too much voltage for the wire speed from the synergic line if you leave the fine voltage adjustment in the neutral position?

 

[Richard.]

What your saying is your telling the machine you want 14m/min and the synergic line is giving you the voltage to match it. Which is 32 volts. Acc to the unit.
Your wps states 28. The machine doesn't know your wps and like I say for me it's a little light (yes I know you've had it qualified) but according to the kemppi it's a little light too (or a lot) what is it welding like when you leave it at 0 (32 volts). Bit hot and wide I guess.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

The synergic line will give you X amount of wire and X amount of voltage for a given material thickness in MM. If the burn off rate/voltage relationship with the wire is wrong then it doesn't really matter what the material thickness says. From what I can gather from what your saying is that it's not like the arc condition is great it's just that it's too hot or not hot enough for the thickness your welding, how you've described it is that the there is too much voltage for the wire speed from the synergic line if you leave the fine voltage adjustment in the neutral position?

That's exactly it yes!