Another first welder thread

[TurtleDude]

I'd love to go down and 'try it' but it fills me with the same dread going to guitar shops did years ago when I was learning to play. You'd be sat down, plugged into an amp in front of the shops own Joe Satriani and asked to 'try it' as he cranked up the amp so the whole shop could hear your awful attempts at playing. I still cringe now thinking about it

The fact I haven't welded so much as a stitch in my life, makes the idea of me marching in their shop asking to put the thing through its paces a bit like a learner on their 17th birthday rocking up at the local Lambourghini dealer and exclaiming "come on then son, let's see what all the fuss is about!"

I do like the idea of local(ish) sellers though. Even if it is all made in China, which as we know is a very very bad thing, always.

We probably won't be so sure in 25 years time when 35000 Chinese tanks roll ashore, each one welded up with an 'El Cheapo' ebay buzz box and very much holding together as they bear down on us!

I digress.

So it's 3in1 aka Thermal Arc 181i, R-Tech 180, CWS 160i Best

Or...start with a decent MMA and work from there...

Or...buy an Oxford MIG and stop getting too complicated.

.....how much harder on a scale of 1-10 is Arc to Mig?

Let's say my ambition is little gates/railings/security bars etc.

 

[Bill Edwards]

Also, the 200amp Jasic is almost double the cost of the 140amp version, with the 160 nearer the upper end too.

Is the 140 going to be able to cut the mustard or is it a lemon in my tartare sauce?

It'll probably be fine.
140 amps will run a 3.2mm rod quite happily (120 amps is normally enough), you rarely need anything bigger for medium jobs, and there isn't really anything you can't do with that size limit.
The real benefit of larger units is the increased duty cycle. However, chances are that on any gate/railing/security bar jobs this won't be a big issue as you'll spend most of the time cutting and positioning something, a short bit of welding then back to messing around, giving the welder enough time to cool down.

MIG is easier to make welds that look pretty, doing that with stick is harder.

 

[rikrobson]

This really depends on the budget. For circa £700 you'll get the Oxford or the r-tech at 25h0is amps. The difference is obviously the transformer/ cap+ tech vs igbt inverter tech. Both will give a stable dc mig arc. The latter mma capability too. R-tech never sell this as a tight capable machine, although with the correct torch it will do scratch tight. The rtech is lighter due to the inverter tech but is still 25 kg.

 

[Tom Orrow L]

If that was single phase I'd be really upset at it not being closer!

Just noticed the red plug, damn it!

 

[TurtleDude]

It'll probably be fine.
140 amps will run a 3.2mm rod quite happily (120 amps is normally enough), you rarely need anything bigger for medium jobs, and there isn't really anything you can't do with that size limit.
The real benefit of larger units is the increased duty cycle. However, chances are that on any gate/railing/security bar jobs this won't be a big issue as you'll spend most of the time cutting and positioning something, a short bit of welding then back to messing around, giving the welder enough time to cool down.

MIG is easier to make welds that look pretty, doing that with stick is harder.

Thank you for that, I'd say 'functional and strong' float my boat more than aesthetic mastery. When the local druggies are trying to break in I doubt they'll award points for finesse on my welding technique so much as swear and begrudge the fact I kept them out. I can see with MANY other applications this is the reverse, such as ornamental work, etc.

All this being said, I could be up and running for peanuts with a Jasic 140 and a bag of sparklers (sorry, rods)

It's just my anal nature that causes me to upgrade, over analyse, future proof, go pro, in every purchase I make these days.

I'd rather spend a lot more than I could knowing I had something that would last forever tha have to keep returning junk for a refund/exchange.

As said earlier, Jasic may well be chinese funk with a long warranty, if so the 140 is a steal. Paying nearly double for the 200 seems a false investment.

 

[Tom Orrow L]

I'd love to go down and 'try it' but it fills me with the same dread going to guitar shops did years ago when I was learning to play. You'd be sat down, plugged into an amp in front of the shops own Joe Satriani and asked to 'try it' as he cranked up the amp so the whole shop could hear your awful attempts at playing. I still cringe now thinking about it

The fact I haven't welded so much as a stitch in my life, makes the idea of me marching in their shop asking to put the thing through its paces a bit like a learner on their 17th birthday rocking up at the local Lambourghini dealer and exclaiming "come on then son, let's see what all the fuss is about!"

I do like the idea of local(ish) sellers though. Even if it is all made in China, which as we know is a very very bad thing, always.

We probably won't be so sure in 25 years time when 35000 Chinese tanks roll ashore, each one welded up with an 'El Cheapo' ebay buzz box and very much holding together as they bear down on us!

I digress.

So it's 3in1 aka Thermal Arc 181i, R-Tech 180, CWS 160i Best

Or...start with a decent MMA and work from there...

Or...buy an Oxford MIG and stop getting too complicated.

.....how much harder on a scale of 1-10 is Arc to Mig?

Let's say my ambition is little gates/railings/security bars etc.

CWS machine I personally would disregard, think about it - They're not a MASSIVE company so they're gonna be buying them in at alright discount (not much compared to companies who buy hundreds of the things from the chinese factories), they've then gotta whack their profit margin, time to test the machines to make sure they're working, delivery costs and some sort of parts/labour guarantee.
Take all that into account and think about how cheaply they would have to buy it and then think about how cheaply it would need to be made so that the factory producing them is making profit too.

Not everything made in China is utter crap though. I believe some ESAB machines are made in China along with some other big boys within the welding world.
Jasic's are chinese I know that for a fact.

If you want more amps than the Jasic 140 have a look at this - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GCE-ARCON...708?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35d9538b4c

Notice that most of the Jasic stick welders don't come with leads, you gotta pay like £40 extra for them. So if you're paying £165 for the 140 + £40 for leads that is £205 all in, whereas with the GCE 200 you're getting 200A stick machine with a digital meter, all your leads & they throw some rods in too (probably some cheap crap ones though)

My choice would be -

If you want MIG go for either the Oxford or the Thermal Arc 181i

If you just want stick go for the GCE 200

 

[PTvor]

The fact I haven't welded so much as a stitch in my life, makes the idea of me marching in their shop asking to put the thing through its paces a bit like a learner on their 17th birthday rocking up at the local Lambourghini dealer and exclaiming "come on then son, let's see what all the fuss is about!"

I do like the idea of local(ish) sellers though. Even if it is all made in China, which as we know is a very very bad thing, always.

We probably won't be so sure in 25 years time when 35000 Chinese tanks roll ashore, each one welded up with an 'El Cheapo' ebay buzz box and very much holding together as they bear down on us!

I digress.

So it's 3in1 aka Thermal Arc 181i, R-Tech 180, CWS 160i Best

Or...start with a decent MMA and work from there...

Or...buy an Oxford MIG and stop getting too complicated.

.....how much harder on a scale of 1-10 is Arc to Mig?

Let's say my ambition is little gates/railings/security bars etc.

The difference is that a 17 year old would hardly be a serious customer for a Lambo, but if he was clearly flush and the whole thing was underwritten, they'd let him test drive it. If he then delivered the loot and received the car, they'd pray and consider that this sort of thing might not be be very good for business long term. Basically it's a show off thing. You can't drive them on the roads to the limits of their performance and competition cars are a different thing again.

It's also different to buying a 5 grand concert guitar when you can't play very well.

You can't wreck this welder by crappy use, or if you can, it shouldn't be on the market.

These are £300-£400 or so welders actually aimed at people who are not professionals and they are trying to establish a name. You don't have to go in there and put in a virtuoso display of welding. You go in there and be straight and say that you are tempted and they show how good it is to use. You have a go and you almost certainly look good for £400.

Let's say my ambition is little gates/railings/security bars etc.

Arc and a fair bit of practice.

 

[daleyd]

The cws machine had decent reviews off the link i posted and was also tried our by another forum member (chunkolini) who seemed to think it was a decent machine given the price. I dont see why it should be discounted as to me it seems a perfectly useable entry level machine at a great price capable of arc and mig. Given your not going to be putting it through industrial levels of use i would seriously consider it for the money, especially given its backed up by a uk seller with a genuine welding business not a box shifting operation.

Do you have any ambition to try your hand at tig welding at some point in the future? If so then i would seriously consider the thermal arc machine as it has the best features out of the listed machines for tig. (its not a full featured tig machine by any means but its more than capable of decent tig results)

If not then any of the others listed would do the job, bearing in mind the inverters give you the flexibility to switch between arc and mig. Given to he range of materials you want to weld (bodywork thickness,possibly - up to gate/railing thickness) one of these would be the most flexible in my opinion, also giving you the option of getting started without gas for the time being. (arc is also better for welding outdoors in windy conditions etc and you dont need to drag the gas bottles out with you)

I dont think you would be disappointed with any of the machines you have listed but each has their pros and cons and its about which one fits in best with your needs.

 

[Tom Orrow L]

Any updates on what has taken your fancy?

 

[TurtleDude]

Ok, (deep breath)...

I've decided that for the time being I will dedicate my Wax On, Wax Off apprenticeship to learning to Arc/Stick/MMA weld.

As such I want the best I can get for that function, and from then on I'll add TIG and MIG to my repertoire, probably in that order.

I want to be able to use a 13a plug, extension lead if needed, and use up to 4mm rods (sparklers) if needed.

Kemppi 180 EVO
EWM Pico 162 or 180
Jasic 160/200
ESAB Caddy Arc 151
Lincoln 170 MMA

Long warranty and short chopstick factors greatly appreciated.
High duty cycles appreciated for no better reason than it'll probably work better and last longer.


So which is bestest?

 

[Tom Orrow L]

Ok, (deep breath)...

I've decided that for the time being I will dedicate my Wax On, Wax Off apprenticeship to learning to Arc/Stick/MMA weld.

As such I want the best I can get for that function, and from then on I'll add TIG and MIG to my repertoire, probably in that order.

I want to be able to use a 13a plug, extension lead if needed, and use up to 4mm rods (sparklers) if needed.

Kemppi 180 EVO
EWM Pico 162 or 180
Jasic 160/200
ESAB Caddy Arc 151

Long warranty and short chopstick factors greatly appreciated.
High duty cycles appreciated for no better reason than it'll probably work better and last longer.


So which is bestest?

Good on you! I'll hands down say that the EWM Pico 162 or 180 is the best stick inverter on the market in my opinion.

EWM are made in Germany and you can ask any member on here that knows there stuff and they will tell you that they're world class kit that'll put pretty much everything else you'll touch to shame.
I believe they have a 3 year warranty and I was once told that the warranty is an ACTUAL 3 year warranty where you can run it for a full 24 hours for 3 years whereas some companies will base the warranty on a "day" as 8 hours (and will have timers within the machine to check this) so really you're not getting what you think you are, Don't know if I've made that very clear.

@Jim Davey will most likely be able to sort you out with an EWM Pico 162 at a decent price. Sorry if i'm wrong there Jim

 

[PTvor]

Why not include Inverter Fusion on your list - made in Devon?

http://www.inverterfusion.co.uk/fusion-range/

 

[Tom Orrow L]

Why not include Inverter Fusion on your list - made in Devon?

http://www.inverterfusion.co.uk/fusion-range/

They all look like handbags
Very good duty cycle but I've seen plenty of these in the bin at the fabricators next to my local welding suppliers because the PCB's keep breaking and they're pretty expensive as far as I know.

You can't go wrong with EWM (can you tell I'm a little bias because I love them :P)

 

[TurtleDude]

Add to the list an Oerlikon 1600 HPF inverter and the Lincoln MMA models.

 

[Tom Orrow L]

Add to the list an Oerlikon 1600 HPF inverter and the Lincoln MMA models.

Hahahaha I love it! You sounds exactly like me when I first started welding and wanted a machine.

Oerlikon HPF models are good because they run off a lower amp plug than you'd usually run a 160A inverter off and its Oerlikon so you know you're getting quality stuff.

Lincoln machines are good but rather expensive, You'll pay around £250 + VAT for A 130A stick welder from them.

My choice would be the EWM Pico 162/ 180 or the Jasic 200 (if you want something a little cheaper)

@Jim Davey is probably the best person to tell you why EWM machines kick everyone else off the park.

 

[Bill Edwards]

They all look like handbags
Very good duty cycle but I've seen plenty of these in the bin at the fabricators next to my local welding suppliers because the PCB's keep breaking and they're pretty expensive as far as I know.

Yes, like £243 + VAT when I had to send mine in for repair...

 

[Tom Orrow L]

Yes, like £243 + VAT when I had to send mine in for repair...

Precisely what I'm talking about :/

 

[PTvor]

They all look like handbags
Very good duty cycle but I've seen plenty of these in the bin at the fabricators next to my local welding suppliers because the PCB's keep breaking and they're pretty expensive as far as I know.

You can't go wrong with EWM (can you tell I'm a little bias because I love them :P)

Where's that fabricator? That's a skip I'd love to dive.

 

[PTvor]

Add to the list an Oerlikon 1600 HPF inverter and the Lincoln MMA models.

Plus Lorch, CEA and a few others.

 

[Tom Orrow L]

Where's that fabricator? That's a skip I'd love to dive.

Hahaha plenty of people already try, you'll be lucky to get your hands on one and I think they've stopped buying them now.

Fabricators Next to Telford group near me