Cheapo plastic wire feeds on big £££ MIGs.

[Afterimage]

I can understand a mig welder manufacturer wanting to keep their costs down by fitting chaep and nasty plasticky wire feed systems on their cheap and cheerful welders,but it seems that you need to spend over £500 to get a 'proper' wire feed that is reliable and works properly.
What would it cost them to fit a proper wire feed to a £300 or £400 welder,about an extra thirty quid?

 

[malcolm]

I've been thinking the same. You would also need to add in a stable voltage supply to the wire feed and make the arc output stable too.

But there is nothing on the market between the £250 lot and the £500 lot. Maybe the manufacturers don't think people would pay the difference for a nice hobby unit.

I reckon invertor welders will sort that out when they become cheaper.

 

[gavuk]

Maybe the manufactures (lorch,fronius,butters etc) all of whom have been visiting this great forum ,might take it on board ,even diyers deserve a reasonably built machines ,with reliable feed and good duty cycle ,for the sort of money people are spending on clarke and sealey units ,before china gets in on the action,sell us their older technology at diy prices ,charge premium for professional units with pulse and all the extra's,help us to support them ,keep Britain manufacturing (from our shed/garages)before we really are an island of shopkeepers,shelf stacker in my case

 

[matt1978]

Maybe the manufactures (lorch,fronius,butters etc) all of whom have been visiting this great forum ,might take it on board ,even diyers deserve a reasonably built machines ,with reliable feed and good duty cycle ,for the sort of money people are spending on clarke and sealey units ,before china gets in on the action,sell us their older technology at diy prices ,charge premium for professional units with pulse and all the extra's,help us to support them ,keep Britain manufacturing (from our shed/garages)before we really are an island of shopkeepers,shelf stacker in my case

I agree mate, DIYers do need good quality kit, but you have to realise it comes at a cost......from a manufacturers point of view they wouldn't use a serious wire feed plate and motor on a cheap machine with Aluminium transformer and tiny choke. what's that saying.........you can't polish a turd?? lol.

Seriously though, the Chinese are already offering Transformer based machines, I would say thats where a lot of the DIY machines you mentioned come from anyway, but the Technology for Standard Transformer Switched migs are 30 yrs old at least anyway. The only only thing your paying for with the better brands are the quality of the Copper wound transformer, a big good quality choke and rectifier, good wire feed system, sturdy case and wheels and (hopefully) a great aftersales service and warranty. The principal behind the technology is the same throughout though..........in saying that I know us (Lorch) and Fronius and I think a couple of others, have put a bit of extra technology into even their basic machines, where as the wire speed and the inductance is calculated by the machine, depending on what voltage you have selected.

 

[gavuk]

....you can't polish a turd?? lol.

i do understand ,from a manufacturing point of view ,times are hard ,and comments are really aimed at sip/cosmo etc if diyers can improve a basic package with a few mods then why can't the manufacturer?.i use machines at work which are industrial and perform well, as a diyer at home i expect my kit not to last as long or be as good as a professional setup but affordable upgrades could be manufactured at reasonable cost so welder's could be upgraded or improved ,mig torches are way overpriced ,feed units and eurotorch connection's cost a fraction of their re-sale value to manufacture,there was a recent thread "pimp my welder" what a great idea !
even you "big boys" can't overlook diyers ,up to £500 is a market that moves regardless of economic climate ,in fact maybe moves faster because of the economic climate (i can take a days holiday ,pay for parts and consumable's and it still be cheaper than taking my car to a garage! where a snotty nose semi-skilled kid charges me a fortune for repairs)but i struggle hiding £800-1000 for a new welder from the missus
i want to spend my money on good British kit with good support ,i do find myself looking at chinese tigs and wondering why certain manufactures are charging £300-400 more for re-badged chinese welders(obviously not lorch ),so when lorch, fronius ,etc want to start producing "loss leaders"to take back the uk diy market i will be camped at the doors waiting to get mine

 

[Hitch]

Im not familiar with these so called wire feeds, the one on the Kemppi miniarc is plastic, but works nicely.

 

[matt1978]

i do find myself looking at chinese tigs and wondering why certain manufactures are charging £300-400 more for re-badged chinese welders

I often wonder the same thing mate, how can they justify the extra cost.....its exactly the same machines as you can get off Ebay for half the money but just with their colours and there badge stuck on

 

[Robotstar5]

The wire feed units on our production welders (Murex / ESAB) are plastic and the only time I've had to replace one was when it was melted by a stalled wire still carrying welding current and glowing red!

 

[Hitch]

Thinking about it, our Migatronics are plastic aswell. Pretty reliable as long as the tensioner isnt wound on as tight as possible

 

[Afterimage]

I gripe wasn't that the wire feeds are plastic,it was that they are of poor quality - this is expected on a £200 welder,but they still fit the same wire feeds to the £400 welders.
I think it's about time the manufacturers raised their game a little and improved the quality of their mid range migs.

 

[Butters]

The Butters AMT 130, 150, 170 and 1800 models all have a plastic drive system, which I think is similar to the drives which are being referred to. There are very few issues with these drives in these machines, therefore proving that they do the job which is required for most users who are purchasing this type of machine.
There is a big jump up to a machine which is a little more industrial, but this is also a jump in the type of use and user.
It would seem that there is a gap, something of a special machine for a few.
Someone obviously needs to fulfill this requirement...........watch www.buttersamt.com.

 

[matt1978]

I gripe wasn't that the wire feeds are plastic,it was that they are of poor quality - this is expected on a £200 welder,but they still fit the same wire feeds to the £400 welders.
I think it's about time the manufacturers raised their game a little and improved the quality of their mid range migs.

With all due respect Mick, £400 for a welder isn't a lot of money if you are talking of Industrial brands and it certainly wouldn't be mid range, even at that price its more likely to be entry level on a Industrial range mig.

 

[matt1978]

The Butters AMT 130, 150, 170 and 1800 models all have a plastic drive system, which I think is similar to the drives which are being referred to. There are very few issues with these drives in these machines, therefore proving that they do the job which is required for most users who are purchasing this type of machine.
There is a big jump up to a machine which is a little more industrial, but this is also a jump in the type of use and user.
It would seem that there is a gap, something of a special machine for a few.
Someone obviously needs to fulfill this requirement...........watch www.buttersamt.com.

As the guy from Butters just said, its horses for courses, you don't need big 4-roll drive, steel drive plates and arms if all you are welding is 0.6mm wire on car bodys every now and again. The plastic is usually sufficient.

 

[gavuk]

.
There is a big jump up to a machine which is a little more industrial, but this is also a jump in the type of use and user.
It would seem that there is a gap, something of a special machine for a few.
Someone obviously needs to fulfill this requirement..

perhaps this is why portamig seem to sell well on here to the diyers lucky enough to have read the reviews before going down machinemart and parting with their hard earned,quality drives ,higher duty cycles,copper transformers,stable arc/drive,are the factors we look for in a welder,produce a welder 25-180 amps with a duty cycle of 60%at the higher amps 3metre torch and upgradable drive (to four roller)for £3-400 and any manufacturer would rule this part of the the market in my opinion

 

[malcolm]

Same spec as the Portamig then, just a couple of hundred cheaper? Would be very easy to market. Though wouldn't it cost the same as a Portamig to build?

I reckon the DIY market would accept aluminium transformers on a budget quality welder at the expense of duty cycle. That'll save a few bucks these days and might reduce shipping costs. Wire feed motor bigger than the Clarke train set devices but smaller than the overkill in the Portamig. Above all make the thing very smooth and controllable.

Might be difficult to market though. Informed hobby buyers would choose one, but ill informed ones will see cheaper welders on the market apparantly with the same spec. Would need to sell them on word of mouth.

 

[Afterimage]

As an example of the point I'm trying to make here is evident in the Machine Mart catalogue with Clarke Mig welders.
MIG 160T - 150A - £258.48 inc vat.
MIG 175TEC -170A - £387.73 inc vat.

That's an extra 129.25 for just a measly 20A increase,and the wire feed is exactly the same as the cheaper model,with a puny wire drive motor about the size of a mig torch shroud.

If Clarke had put a better quality wire drive in their bigger migs I'd have bought one,but I have a Clarke MIG100EN and when I found out that almost all of their welders have the same poor wire feed assembly as the one fitted to my MIG100EN I ruled out Clarke welders straight away(the Clarke MIG220TE comes with an improved wire drive but this retails at £587.48).

 

[shenion]

The wire feeds on the Clarkes are fine. Remember they are only driving a 7' torch.

Mine ran a 12' and 15' torch with no problems.

 

[Afterimage]

The wire feeds on the Clarkes are fine. Remember they are only driving a 7' torch.

Mine ran a 12' and 15' torch with no problems.

If these wire feeds were truly up to the job,why would the more experienced members of this forum recommend that we don't fit 15KG spools of wire to these machines lest the wire feed system be overwhelmed?

They work - but only just,and that's when they're new.

I learned how to mig weld on a machine at our local college that probably cost about a £1000,and when I bought my own 100A Clarke mig welder (new) I was extremely disappointed in how cheap and nasty the wire feed setup was.
It looks like it's cost Clarke about £5,when if they'd spent twice as much the welder would be transformed.

Weldequip informs us that this very same nasty wire feed system is fitted to all of the Clarke machines up to the MIG230TEC (retails at over£500).

If I was disappointed in the wire feed on a £160 welder,I'd have been absolutely crying my eyes out if I'd spent £500 on a welder fitted with the same poor quality parts!

I wanted to buy a good mig for about £400 but I'm told that there isn't one available at this price range,so I've got to find about £550 for a Portamig or a Butters 181 just to get a decent wire feed (£550 is a LOT of money to me).

 

[shenion]

If these wire feeds were truly up to the job,why would the more experienced members of this forum recommend that we don't fit 15KG spools of wire to these machines lest the wire feed system be overwhelmed?

Mine had enough torque to birdsnest 0.9mm wire. The motor did not even slow down (you did hear the gears make more noise.)

Don't group all plastic wire feeds as the same. There are several different motors available that all look the same (I have been on the OEM web site.) Also, the control board has a significant effect on the torque (hence the SIP upgrades to better power supply.)

I did read somewhere that the 180 and above Clarkes have the higher wattage motor than the smaller ones (still same size.) Judging a feeder by motor size is not very accurate. I have seen motors that size deliver 1/2 HP.

With the Clarkes, I would not put on a 15kg reel. Not because the drive system does not have enough torque, but because the reel spindle is too flimsy. A better MIG will have a bearing that can hold the weight with a consistent drag setting.

 

[gavuk]

the construction being plastic,the transformer being ally or copper,the drive motor the size of a truck starting motor is not really the issue ,the issue is for the best part of a weeks wages we should expect a mig to perform well,"fit for purpose" i'd like to think ANY welder i buy would feed consistently and smoothly ,the arc would be stable as malcom stated, as most cheaper units are aimed at car repairers/thin gauge metal they should be capable of consistent start stop operations which probably strain the feed system more than continuous operation?.....and if they want to install cheaper plastic units why not 4x4 cheap units ? why tie the welding transformer and feed drive together?at least provide us with a warning if the machine is overheating and is gonna cause bad welds/inconsistent feeds.i hope the british suppliers rise to the challenge before the far east does ,learn the lesson of british leyland and triumph motorcycles,listen to the customers !the units will sell ,anyone that buys from machine mart probably checks e-bay as well