Advice for newbie

[SteveR]

I've never done any welding before, but it would be useful to have one for various jobs around the farm so I'd like to get a MIG welder and could do with some advice on which to go for. I've looked on the Machine Mart site and the first thing that stands out is that they appear to have red and blue ranges and some have "EN" as part of their names, but I haven't yet figured out what the significance is. The next is that the prices don't seem to correlate very well with the maximum powers.

For example, the [blue] 151ENTurbo @150A is a bit cheaper than the slightly more powerful [red] 180Turbo @160A. The 151 comes with some a sort of starter pack that might explain that, but then there's the [red] 160ENTurbo that's the same 160A power as the 180Turbo but nearly a hundred quid more expensive. Presumably there are differences in features and/or quality but I'm struggling to see what the extra money buys.

Can anyone shed any light on any of this for a newbie, please?

 

[shenion]

The EN models are gas/gasless. TE and TM are gas only.

The 151/160 are the Italian made models and are 150A.

I think the 180 is Chinese, the 145 and 196 definitely are. The Chinese models have a higher minimum current, usually 40A.

 

[SteveR]

The EN models are gas/gasless. TE and TM are gas only.

Ah - thanks. I wondered at that but probably dismissed it when I saw that the 180 is dual but not designated an EN model.

The 151/160 are the Italian made models and are 150A.
I think the 180 is Chinese, the 145 and 196 definitely are. The Chinese models have a higher minimum current, usually 40A.

Are the Chinese models proving to be poorer quality or something?

The job that has prompted the need to get a welder involves tacking an 8mm piece of mild steel (like a thick washer) onto the end of a tube of 4mm steel to form a flange. If I understand correctly this would be a "tee joint" involving a "fillet weld". Am I right in thinking that for this kind of weld I could get away with using a welder whose maximum recommended thickness is a bit less than that of the workpiece, e.g. a 6mm welder rather than going to the expense of a 10mm one?

Also, is Mig likely to be the best way to go for a novice whose requirements are mostly likely to be jobs around the farm? Someone I was chatting with suggested going with an Arc welder instead. I'm not sure why that was - are Arcs reckoned to be better for agricultural work where strength and simplicity are far more important than neatness?

 

[Rig Pig]

Stick welders are not as fussy about corrosion & paint and don't have shield gas for the wind to blow away!

 

[Bill Edwards]

The welder of choice for farm work is nearly always stick (also known as MMA or 'arc').
It has several advantages over a MIG:

It'll work outdoors just fine, whereas with a MIG the slightest breeze blows the gas away and you're wasting your time. You can get gasless wire, but it generally isn't considered as good.
You need a lot more power to do the same thing with a MIG. With a basic stick welder you can weld just about anything with enough runs, whether it's a bar for a gate or the brackets for an implement. Inverter welders seem to be the way forward as they're easier to use, not that expensive and very light to carry.

Take a look at http://www.weldequip.com/parweld-xti160.htm

MIG welders need gas. For anything other than the rarest of hobby use the best deal is probably to rent a bottle from BOC at £37 per year + VAT, and £25 + VAT per refill. You have to carefully move a bottle round, making the whole thing a bit cumbersome unless it'll never leave the workshop. The welding wire can also go rusty if it's not kept in the best conditions and used often.

Everything has to be very clean for a MIG, but a stick welder can usually give acceptable results (for farm bodges) even with a bit of rust and paint in the way.

Stick welds are normally as strong as they look. If it looks reasonable then it probably is, but in the hands of the inexperienced a MIG is quite good at giving welds that look passable but aren't any use.

Perhaps the main disadvantage of a stick welder is that the rods need to be kept dry otherwise they become horrible to use and the weld quality is awful. It also takes a bit of practice to get half decent, though this is also true for MIG.
It's not very good on thin stuff where a MIG is the way to go, but this is rarely much of a problem on a farm and nearly everything is better done with a stick. For all normal farm repairs if there is a choice of one or the other, it'd be stick every time.

 

[SteveR]

Very interesting POV - thanks for that.

Inverter welders seem to be the way forward as they're easier to use

I take it that's compared with conventional arc welders. In what way are inverter welders easier to use (and why), and are they less robust?

 

[shenion]

A conventional transformer MIG welder has fixed voltage settings. The transformer has a number of taps for voltage that are selected by switches.

Most stick transformer welders approximate constant current, the current varies with voltage (arc length.)

Most transformer welders have little or no power factor correction. That means the mains current is higher than the power needed. Their efficiency may not be that high; often as low as 60% on their higher settings..

Single-phase transformer welders do not have a smooth DC due to being just rectified AC.

Inverter welders use switching power control similar to a PC power supply. Since they are processor controlled, they have a true constant current for stick. They have a continuously-variable voltage or current setting. Most have power-factor control and most are 82% to 92% efficient. So, the mains current is considerably lower. They also are much smaller and lighter as they don't need a big, heavy transformer.

Since they are "smart" welders, they can support many features in software. Things like slope, pulse and arc force control.

Inverter welders are more complicated; thus can be less reliable and expensive to fix. For this reason, you need to get one with good dealer support that will honor a warranty. A "box mover" will sell a chap Chines inverter that may or may not even work and if it fails, might have to be sent back to China. Many Chinese machines are copies of copies that use used, bogus or under-rated parts. Usually a seller with good local support will carry more reliable machines as repair seriously cuts into profits.

I have two big transformer welders that are 35+ years old. Simple, HUGE and reliable. I would rather have an inverter welder for the smaller space, less power and advanced features.

As Bill said, stick is best for farm use as you work on heavier stuff. Small MIGs tend to overly state the maximum metal thickness they can support (usually be 25%). They also have low duty cycle on their higher settings. Stick also does not require renting gas bottles.

What kind of power do you have? If all you have is a 13A outlet, an inverter stick welder is the way to go.

If you have or can run a 32A outlet or have 3-phase, you could find a used transformer stick welder that will be inexpensive.

 

[SteveR]

Thanks, that's useful and interesting stuff. Chatting with others there's a strong tendency argue that MIG's much greater ease of use (especially for a beginner) outweighs the greater grunt of stick, using multiple beads and a bit of wind shielding where necessary. I can see the arguments both ways, but I only want to buy one welder

What kind of power do you have? If all you have is a 13A outlet, an inverter stick welder is the way to go.
If you have or can run a 32A outlet or have 3-phase, you could find a used transformer stick welder that will be inexpensive.

The welder would be used in and around my barn, which has a single phase supply and just 13A sockets at the moment, but it might be possible to provide a dedicated high-draw socket.

 

[shenion]

Stick is not that hard. I find it easier in some instances and prefer it on anything over 2mm thick.

A 160A Stick welder will work fine. On 13A, you'll get about 140A on MIG and that will not get as good penetration as stick. Stick works well if you need to do more than one pass. Milti-pass MIG welds tend to not fuse well on small machines.

Look at the Parweld, IFL, TecArc (weldequip) and R-tech welders. All make 160A stick welders. You might

 

[Rig Pig]

The other big plus with stick is the variety of rods for different metals and applications and the low cost of the rods.

 

[shenion]

Yes, rods for cast iron and hardsurfacing would be useful on a farm.

You can get special-purpose wire for MIG but each requires a different gas and are usually only sold in 30lb reels and larger.

I'd also recommend an oxy/propane torch as the "big blue wrench" and also for brazing.

 

[Bill Edwards]

Unless your welding will consist of routinely building implements and doing very large repairs requiring major levels of fabrication that will require a powerful welder with a very high (at or close to 100%) duty cycle I suggest you get a 160A inverter stick welder. They can run off a 13A supply without trouble at the amps you'll need for a 3.2mm rod, which is the main size for farm repairs.
It doesn't sound like you'll be doing this kind of work on a regular basis and even if you do, the inverter welder I linked to should run a 3.2mm rod at 135 amps (which is plenty) all day long anyway, according to the specs. I'm tempted to get one myself.

I work on a decent sized livestock farm as the maintenance/repairs/welding chap - which means I spend a lot of time repairing stuff broken by cattle, tractor drivers, rust etc. I've recently got a MIG in place, but the welder of choice is still an old oil cooled welder (sadly it requires a 32A supply) with a 3.2mm rod. Sometimes a smaller rod would be very useful for the odd thin job, but I manage without. The MIG gets very little use, partly because it is using my gas and wire but mainly because the stick is best for that job. If I had to choose I wouldn't give a MIG a moments thought. And no, I'm not new to MIG.

I do my fair share of large fabrication jobs (big gates) as well as major repairs (bucket cutting edges/plating, attachment brackets etc) and a large MIG would be nice for those jobs as I could blast away quicker when the metal is cleaned well. However, the welder would need to be at least 200 amps, would require a power supply that isn't readily available, and would cost far more than it would save in time in the foreseeable future. Such a machine would be well out of your budget, unless you were very lucky. Yet a basic stick welder can manage the same job.

You can get a cheaper stick welder (such as http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160-AMP-A...590?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5d360aea86). They can be picked up very cheaply and tend to be reliable. However, the duty cycles are awful, they're still heavy (but not unmanageable) to move and they're unpleasant to weld with, though they will glue metal together.
Inverter welders are DC (instead of AC as per cheap transformer stick welders) which is meant to be better to use. They can also come with clever electronic stuff to help you start (hot start) and anti stick.

 

[SteveR]

I suggest you get a 160A inverter stick welder.

I've been discussing the matter with some others who have made a good case for MIG but I'm rather put off by the idea of having to shield the working from the breeze. Some have pointed out that not much shielding is needed, but it's nearly always windy here and I can imagine it being a real nuisance. I was also a bit dubious about how easy it would be for a novice to get good penetration on thicker materials with the small MIGs I was considering. On balance I'm currently inclined towards an inverter stick instead, and the Parweld unit you mentioned is the main one I was looking at.

My biggest concern about stick welding is that it's almost universally reckoned to be much harder to get started than with MIG, and I really would like to be able to get at least this one job out of the way, no matter how scrappily, without spending several days (or weeks!) practicing first. I've heard that it's easier for a novice to get started with an inverter welder than a converntional arc welder, but I realise that doesn't mean it will be simple.

It doesn't sound like you'll be doing this kind of work on a regular basis

I certainly hope not! If I happen to develop a taste for it and want to do more then I can always rethink, but I'm not planning on making a hobby out of it. I'll be happy if I can get this one little job out of the way and then bodge other things together as and when necessary, hopefully picking up just a little more proficiency as I go.

I work on a decent sized livestock farm as the maintenance/repairs/welding chap - which means I spend a lot of time repairing stuff broken by cattle, tractor drivers, rust etc.

Only a small farm here (~50ac) but it's just me and the wife. And, yes, cattle and rust! I think the toll they've both taken on a couple of ring feeders over the winter is probably terminal, even with a smart new welder and lots of practice,

You can get a cheaper stick welder (such as http://www.ebay...)

No, something like the Parweld sounds good to me. I'll have to fork out some extra cash for an auto-dark shield and some other equipment (clamps, protective gear and so on) but that would e the case whatever welder I buy and, as you point out, a stick welder should be cheaper to keep than a MIG anyway.

Thanks very much again for your help and insights - very useful.

 

[shenion]

One thing about MIG is it wants clean steel. Most stick rods are more forgiving about a bit of rust.

6011 rods are great for burning through rust and scale. 6013's can handle a bit.

Farm stuff will never be clean.

Stick is not hard to learn. Usually, if a stick weld looks good, it is good. MIG welds can look ok but have poor fusion. For me MIG takes more practice to get a particular weld right. I can grab a stick rod, set the machine to what I know is right and weld away. I only use MIG on real thin metal (less than 2mm.)

MIG IS easy to learn, but takes longer to know if it is right.

I say, get a decent stick inverter and practice a bit. Get some good rods, that really helps learning. Some really struggle with stick as they use real cheap rods that are hard to use or have an awful cheap buzz box (or both.).

For farm use, I' get 3 different rods:

6013 - general purpose use
6011 - where you want deep penetration and burn through scale.
70xx - where you need higher strength. These must be kept dry though.

I'd get some 6013 2.4 and 3.2mm rods to start and practice with. Practice on some 4mm steel. You'll get it following the tutorials here. Any difficulties and the members here will get you going; they did for me.

 

[Bill Edwards]

If your work is mending stuff damaged by rust and livestock then, although it may be quite thin a lot of the time, I'd go with the stick. Even when you've plenty of time to clean up the job you tend to find that you simply can't get a grinder in everywhere that you need to, and there will be parts that you need to weld through rust, paint and muck. Even when you can clean a part with a grinder, deep rust pits will remain unless you grind a lot of metal away, at which point you end up with nothing left. A MIG isn't suitable for dirty metal, it's use is really for welding clean metal to clean metal. I've always found the slightest breeze causes problems too, shielding it isn't always going to be possible, never mind practical.

I'd do as suggested by shenion - get some good quality (they aren't expensive) 3.2 and 2.5 E6013 welding rods. Pheonix rods seem to be decent, or anything you get from a welding supplies shop ought to be. Avoid the unknown stuff off eBay, from ALDI, SIP etc as they can be hard to use.

 

[SteveR]

Parweld XTi 160 duly ordered (from Weldequip) along with ADF mask and sundries. Various stupid beginner questions are sure to follow...

Thanks for all the advice and comments.

 

[Bill Edwards]

As they say, 'there are no daft questions' - I won't bother with the rest.
Ask away and post up photos of your first welds for guidance on what to change.

 

[SteveR]

Will do. I guess I need to see if I can find some scrap steel plate on which to try create some practice beads...

 

[Bill Edwards]

That's the place to start. I'd say 4mm thick or more, and get it fairly clean. You can get away with welding through much, rust and paint when needed but get something clean to start on!
Then with a 3.2mm rod try around 110 amps, that should be a good starting point to begin playing.

 

[SteveR]

OK, I'll try that. Might have to buy in some stock plate to practice on - offhand I can't think of anything I've got around the place that would suit.