Memory card slot in a welder?

[MattF]

I can't see how in that sort of application this sort of technology and all of the possibilities it brings can be described as pointless

Because it's unnecessary and extra points of failure. If you want to set something up and have it stick to those settings, use a removable controller and remove it once set. Simple and reliable. Chucking shedloads of extra electronics in there is just unnecessary.

Btw, no offence taken. Simple fact that some of us likely are, else are gradually becoming, technophobes.

 

[matt1978]

But the majority of machines (with the exception of Transformer based units) are full of electronics anyway. Have been for 20 years or more.

It's only like mobile phones and computers, technology which is available today is vastly different from what was available 10 years back but a new phone with a camera and wifi is no less reliable than a old phone without a camera wifi.

 

[MattF]

But the majority of machines (with the exception of Transformer based units) are full of electronics anyway. Have been for 20 years or more.

It's only like mobile phones and computers, technology which is available today is vastly different from what was available 10 years back but a new phone with a camera and wifi is no less reliable than a old phone without a camera wifi.

I'm not arguing with the general theory or the fact that the technology is already ingrained, but there is a definite tendency to introduce measures which could be implemented far more easily and more simply with just abouts everything, these days. The amount of unnecessary complexity involved would likely be a better way to describe it.

With regards to reliability old vs new, in a way you're correct. The large difference between those two being repairability. One was likely readily repairable with a set of basic replacement components. Newer stuff is a full blown board swap, in a lot of cases. SMD equipment ain't exactly geared towards being repairable with ease.

Call me old fashioned, but I'll personally stick with old equipment ways. Now that's only for personal use, and not high throughput commercial, so it obviously differs to the scenario you're describing.

 

[matt1978]

Your right regarding SMD not lending it self to repair by your average joe but the use of SMD in machines has been like that for years, so in effect you wouldn't be able to easily repair any machine made by any of the well known manufacturers at home from around the last 10 years regardless of if it has RFID, WiFi or memory slot.

I don't know about any other manufacturers but with all of the new stuff from Lorch there is at least 3 front panel options with varying levels of complexity.

On the Micor Mig there is a choice of Basic, Basic Plus and Control Pro.

The Basic one is exactly like conventional old style mig, one knob for wire speed and one for Voltage. That's it. No frills, no synergic lines.

The basic plus is as above but with a few more features and Synergic function.

The control pro is top of the shop one.

So it's not a case that the extra features are forced on people who don't want/need one, you just choose the model with the level of tech that you want/feel comfortable with, but with the huge benefit that the front panel can be upgraded to a more sophisticated version at any point in the future if your needs change.

 

[AndyStobbs]

It just to me seems like WHY? The old men who are now dust in their graves were laying down welds well upto the job half a century ago. Today, we are still getting welds just as good, but with equipment so totally different.

Again I'm not being contradictory just for the sake of it, and ofcourse can see it from others point of view - In the case of you Matt1978, its your job, and if your company get left behind - you wont have a job so you have a vested intrest in pushing new gear.

As for the automotive industry thinking their lines are slowed down now, wait until they've got 50 welders which are starting to behave like a 5 year old microsoft computer.
'We can't weld subframes today because computer says no' - has an ironic ring to it, I'll bet when that time comes, they would welcome 50 men who mess with the welder settings as long as they still build subframe xyz and keep the line going.

How many times in a week do you hear 'my computer is running slow today' - I get that when ordering parts, speaking to my utilities providers. I sometimes wonder whether computers have speeded anything up at all - or have they just put a load of office staff on the unemployed list?

 

[Shox Dr]

It's called saving money... Were MIG sets not invented to enable semi skilled workers to produce uniform weldments?

This is just another layer, to take away adjustments from the operator, while enabling those with the authority: to adjust multiple sets with the least amount of downtime and human errors in adjusting multiple sets.

MattF/Andy : I believe the term you are looking for is Neo-Luddism a very interesting subject itself

The Unabomber- Ted Kaczynski was a Neo Luddite, interesting stuff

 

[AndyStobbs]

It's called saving money... Were MIG sets not invented to enable semi skilled workers to produce uniform weldments?

This is just another layer, to take away adjustments from the operator, while enabling those with the authority: to adjust multiple sets with the least amount of downtime and human errors in adjusting multiple sets.

MattF/Andy : I believe the term you are looking for is Neo-Luddism a very interesting subject itself

The Unibomber- Ted Kaczynski was a Neo Luddite, interesting stuff

Guilty as charged of being a Neo-luddinite. Had to read up on it, but it was interesting.

 

[Shox Dr]

Guilty as charged of being a Neo-luddinite. Had to read up on it, but it was interesting.

Same here...



The 63yr old pickup is a bit of a giveaway

 

[MattF]

Guilty as charged of being a Neo-luddinite. Had to read up on it...

Same here, on both counts.

 

[Shox Dr]

Same here, on both counts.

wer's mi pipe

 

[matt1978]

If you took a walk round pretty much any of the major car production plants you would see almost all digitalised inverter mig/mag welding machines, it's been like that for atleast 10 years or more. Jaguar landrover has a mix of Lorch and Fronius, All of JCB's many UK based production plants all have Fronius or Miller inverters, Liebherr in North East has a lot of EWM, Caterpillar in The North East is full of Miller. Not once has the production line stopped because the machines are made from SMD technology and your average bloke cannot fix them, nor have the ever stopped because the "computer said no" For all of the technology behind them for all intense and purposes they are still welding machines.

It's also simply not true that 50 years ago you were able to produce welds to the same integrity as we can today. With some of the new mig processes you can get the same level of penetration from a leg length half the size of what was previously available from MMA welding. Fronius launched the CMT process, which now makes it possible to weld steel to Aluminium, metallurgists could only of dreamed of this 15 years ago, let alone 50 years ago. 1000's of miles of oil pipelines are now welded using special processes that allow extremely narrow gaps to be joined, meaning less of a prep is required for the butt joint, in turn knocking off thousands of hours welding time. We can weld faster, better, with more strength and less distortion than was ever possible before. It's definitely not a case for adding technology for the sake of it.

New welding processes, new filler wires, new fluxes, new gas mixes and new parent materials are all being developed constantly so it makes sense that the barriers of the technology behind the machines is also constantly pushed, if not then we would still be gas brazing aluminium together as no one would of bothered developing AC Tig.

 

[AndyStobbs]

If you took a walk round pretty much any of the major car production plants you would see almost all digitalised inverter mig/mag welding machines, it's been like that for atleast 10 years or more. Jaguar landrover has a mix of Lorch and Fronius, All of JCB's many UK based production plants all have Fronius or Miller inverters, Liebherr in North East has a lot of EWM, Caterpillar in The North East is full of Miller. Not once has the production line stopped because the machines are made from SMD technology and your average bloke cannot fix them, nor have the ever stopped because the "computer said no" For all of the technology behind them for all intense and purposes they are still welding machines.

It's also simply not true that 50 years ago you were able to produce welds to the same integrity as we can today. With some of the new mig processes you can get the same level of penetration from a leg length half the size of what was previously available from MMA welding. Fronius launched the CMT process, which now makes it possible to weld steel to Aluminium, metallurgists could only of dreamed of this 15 years ago, let alone 50 years ago. 1000's of miles of oil pipelines are now welded using special processes that allow extremely narrow gaps to be joined, meaning less of a prep is required for the butt joint, in turn knocking off thousands of hours welding time. We can weld faster, better, with more strength and less distortion than was ever possible before. It's definitely not a case for adding technology for the sake of it.

New welding processes, new filler wires, new fluxes, new gas mixes and new parent materials are all being developed constantly so it makes sense that the barriers of the technology behind the machines is also constantly pushed, if not then we would still be gas brazing aluminium together as no one would of bothered developing AC Tig.

Half of those examples are based around increased speed of job - which is moving away from the original subject of whether a welder needs to be remotely controlled.
I take on board what you say about the rest, improved penitration, CMT process, TIG vs gas etc. They are all deffinite useful innovations.
You'll have to concede eventually that the more things a machine has to go wrong, the more it'll go wrong - its an inescapable fact. Machines in Jag, JCB, Vauxhall, Nissan, whoever all suffer breakdowns - some of which couldn't have occured on a less complex machine.

For the record, I'm not a complete dinosaur of the technology age - my age alone makes it impossible, having been born into it. I'm all for technology, just not the over-application of it (I realise that's a personal line to be drawn).

 

[wheresmejumper]

I dont really mind what they put on welders i cant afford

 

[Robotstar5]

I've watched the automotive industry develop over 35 years and if we still built cars using 1970's technology I suspect they would cost 5 times todays price!.
Example is machine control, what used to be done by a relay controlled panel the size of a garden shed can now be done by a box the size of a cereal packet.
If the relay panel broke, it could take hours to fault find, on a modern machine the only time you know there is a fault is a red LED comes on, the process is unaffected as the "hot standby" processor has automatically taken over allowing replacement of the faulty unit at a conveinient time.

 

[matt1978]

Ah but the point about whether a machine needs to be remote controlled all depends on the application. As I said before it's not the case that all machines sold will have wifi capability enabled due to the extra cost and for the simple reason (slightly agreeing with you ) that not everyone will need it. But in the applications where it is a benefit (such as Robot cells etc) it will be invaluable.

If a machine is playing up, it could be by the virtue that it is wifi enabled that it could get fixed/resolved even faster than a machine that wasn't simply because the service technician at the factory where it was built could look at diagnostic data and in turn be able to say what was wrong and even possibly fix it remotely.

I don't think It's going to be anytime soon that a machine that falls into someone's budget for home/DIY use will have this level of technology enabled as standard so you don't need to worry just yet

 

[MattF]

What I'd really like to know though, whilst were on this track of the benefits of modern technology and how it's increased productivity, precision etc., is why they still can't get the bl**dy holes in flat pack furniture aligned correctly with all this modern kit?

 

[Shox Dr]

I don't think It's going to be anytime soon that a machine that falls into someone's budget for home/DIY use will have this level of technology enabled as standard so you don't need to worry just yet

Word

 

[AndyStobbs]

If a machine is playing up by the virtue that it is wifi enabled could mean that it gets fixed/resolved even faster than a machine that wasn't simply because the service technician at the factory where it was built could look at diagnostic data and in turn be able to say what was wrong and possible fix it remotely.

They said that about cars. I remember it like yesterday. 15 years old, with a rep from Volvo giving us a lecture on the merits of becomming a mechanic (it was thin on the ground so far as salient points goes, but he fleshed it out with a lot of bull) after we left school and had to get into the world of work. He claimed the modern cars would tell the mechanic what was wrong with them - he was correct in as much as fault codes are concerned, but the point is, I often spend hours just thinking about the weird ones. 90% of tough jobs in dealerships get a rook of unnecessary new parts fitted first and eventually the ledger 'possible ecu fault' when it hasn't fixed it.
Anyway I digress, I don't envy the welder service techs one bit.

 

[matt1978]

What I'd really like to know though, whilst were on this track of the benefits of modern technology and how it's increased productivity, precision etc., is why they still can't get the bl**dy holes in flat pack furniture aligned correctly with all this modern kit?

Wouldn't be as fun if they did

 

[AndyStobbs]

What I'd really like to know though, whilst were on this track of the benefits of modern technology and how it's increased productivity, precision etc., is why they still can't get the bl**dy holes in flat pack furniture aligned correctly with all this modern kit?

Shame on you. Solid oak is the furniture of a Neo-luddinite.