Can anyone identify this metal?

[MattF]

I know this is like asking how long a piece of string is, without seeing it in the flesh, but just curious as to what this might be. A length of iron rod, it's an absolute cow to get any type of decent finish on the lathe, though does seem to cut okay. Also seems to have a coarse grain type structure visible when the surface layer is broken through, and also seems to leave a very gritty/sandy residue on the lathe bed. Plus it clogs the file like there's no tomorrow, again leaving a gritty feeling layer on the file.

It's been in the vat to remove the worst of the rust from the surface, so that dark layer is from that process.

It's been suggested it could be wrought, but never having seen the stuff that I know of, I've no way of knowing if it's similar.

This has been made from the stuff, if it helps identify it, (the partially threaded rod).

 

[chunkolini]

Is it just hot rolled mild steel bar?
Initial photo looks like it to me.
Wrought iron is a complex mix of slag and iron, that looks to have machined nicely.
Just remember
'I know nothing'.

 

[MattF]

Is it just hot rolled mild steel bar?

I've honestly no idea. All I know is that it's donkeys years old. It's the peculiar patterning which is visible occasionally which makes me think it's not though. I suppose a flake type effect would be the best way to describe it. It does seem to machine slightly differently to any mild steel I've used so far as well. Can't quite describe in what way, just differently.

that looks to have machined nicely.

It machined okay enough, as in it cuts easily enough. Finish wise though, the file had to come into play there. It would have looked rougher than a bears **** if I hadn't feathered it with the file.

 

[Hitch]

Hot rolled steel bar is nasty for machining, and next to useless... rough finish, tears rather than cuts nicely, and from the photo, it looks like just 'black' bar......

 

[Pete.]

Certainly looks like hot rolled to me.

 

[k13wjd]

Is that a brake caliber slide?

Anyway, I have an old piece of tool steel that looks like that.

How dense is it?

 

[Lawnmowerboy]

Really hard to say. Looks like hot rolled MS to me. Turns horribly and tears the surface like EN3B

Brake caliper slides are hardened and ground.

 

[MattF]

Cheers chaps. From how it machines, that definitely sounds like the stuff. Tried two different tool bits, resharpened them etc. when I first touched it, before I acknowledged that it definitely was the metal and not I causing the problem.

Nope, it's not a brake caliper slide. It's the tension adjuster screw for a hacksaw blade.

 

[dan.taylor.1]

Does bright mild machine any better? I need an handle making with a slot for a ball bearing detent in the middle, don't wanna waste time with a bar that's going to be a pig.

Dan

 

[Bsmith]

When you say iron bar, that's exactly what it is layered/rough/duller finish and softer than MS. The type of stuff used before mild steel, same as used in old blacksmith vices etc, it may well be crystalised, this happens with old iron due to age, I have snapped an old vice handle and fallen on the floor when it broke like a piece of cast iron. Heat sorts it out. Very best material for forge welding.

 

[MattF]

When you say iron bar, that's exactly what it is layered/rough/duller finish and softer than MS. The type of stuff used before mild steel, same as used in old blacksmith vices etc, it may well be crystalised, this happens with old iron due to age, I have snapped an old vice handle and fallen on the floor when it broke like a piece of cast iron. Heat sorts it out. Very best material for forge welding.

Cheers for that info. That definitely sounds like it's the stuff. Similar to mild that I've used in the past, but not the same, and definitely has unusual patterning in places and somewhat varying characteristics. That explains why it's had me head scratching. I knew it wasn't just my imagination.

The more bits I'm doing with it, I'm gradually finding a sweet spot too. It still machines somewhat rough, so to speak, but it does seem to like fairly hefty cuts, (in comparison to what I'd normally take), rather than light cuts, at a fair bit of speed.

Bet that handle snapping must have been a bit of a surprise? Not something you'd generally be expecting to happen.

 

[Bsmith]

We used to sharpen the teeth of farmers harrows that were worn, they were 5/8" square bar made from it and pointed at the ends. Had to heat them to white hot or welding temp in the forge or the points would split when hammered on the anvil if too cool. On the other end of the harrow tooth it was stepped down to 1/2" round with a squared neck and threaded 1/2" BSW. I used to land in trouble as an apprent for setting the die too deep for cleaning up the thread and twisting the threaded part right off. We used to have to weld a bolt on the end to repair my damage. Yes quite a shock when the dambed old vice handle broke.

I have never tried turning it in the lathe.

 

[Lawnmowerboy]

Something like EN1A leaded (purple bar end) turns far nicer and doesn't tear like BMS.

 

[MattF]

We used to sharpen the teeth of farmers harrows that were worn, they were 5/8" square bar made from it and pointed at the ends. Had to heat them to white hot or welding temp in the forge or the points would split when hammered on the anvil if too cool. On the other end of the harrow tooth it was stepped down to 1/2" round with a squared neck and threaded 1/2" BSW. I used to land in trouble as an apprent for setting the die too deep for cleaning up the thread and twisting the threaded part right off. We used to have to weld a bolt on the end to repair my damage.

How come they used plain iron rather than steel? I'm assuming it must have some quality which makes it preferable for that type of use? Is it still possible to get hold of this stuff, or have they stopped producing in favour of alternatives?

Yes quite a shock when the dambed old vice handle broke.

I can fair imagine. Lucky you only ended up on the floor though. That could have led to a nasty accident.

I have never tried turning it in the lathe.

Now that I'm getting used to it, it's not too bad. Still not a cat in hells of getting a really smooth finish on it without further finishing, but it doesn't machine too badly once you get used to it. Occasionally hit a hard patch which can make it fun. The tool just skims along and then digs in when it hits a soft patch. Only tends to be problematic when taking light/skim cuts though.

 

[Bsmith]

How come they used plain iron rather than steel? I'm assuming it must have some quality which makes it preferable for that type of use? Is it still possible to get hold of this stuff, or have they stopped producing in favour of alternatives?

As far as I know it was used before MS was available or at least not so plentiful. Last I saw old iron shafts was when I was demolishing an old timber built threshing mill because I wanted the plummer block bearings. I doubt very much if it's still available. Why would you want it? MS is all round preferable.




I can fair imagine. Lucky you only ended up on the floor though. That could have led to a nasty accident.

Yes, Lucky I was pushing the handle down at the time and not pulling at it, I remember just skimming the top of my head on the bench

 

[julianthegypsy]

God, I remember pointing harrow tine blanks when I was an apprentice. 1" square bar, I used a 6lb sledge with a short handle and could manage twenty an hour. The first day I had a blister right across my hand. Ouch, I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore!

 

[MattF]

Is it still possible to get hold of this stuff, or have they stopped producing in favour of alternatives?

As far as I know it was used before MS was available or at least not so plentiful. Last I saw old iron shafts was when I was demolishing an old timber built threshing mill because I wanted the plummer block bearings. I doubt very much if it's still available. Why would you want it? MS is all round preferable.

First would be consistency. I only have a few lengths of the stuff here, so if I'm using it on projects, I'd prefer to stick with it on whatever I've started at the time rather than switching to mild half way through. If I can't get any, then obviously I'll need to be frugal in my application of it and reserve it for the main projects.

Second would be the fact that I simply like it, the more I'm playing with it. Can't quite put my finger on what it is, but there is some slight discernible difference to mild which I find appealing.

Is malleable iron what it's generally referred to as? The type of stuff they make black iron conduit and the like from. Started digging through the old tomes, (saying that, pretty much all my workshop and reference material is pre 50's, so I don't actually have any new tomes ), to try and find the name of the stuff again. This fuzzy memory crap when you start getting older ain't a fun thing, is it.

 

[Bsmith]

This fuzzy memory crap when you start getting older ain't a fun thing, is it.

It certainly is not and you appear like me, you don't like to change or modernise.
I don't know what the name for the old stuff is, we just called it "iron". I remember the blacksmith that I did my apprent with calling it "raw iron".
Mallable to me would be like a cast iron which is hammerable, like some pipe fittings etc.
Next summer (2014) I may be able to find a few pieces of iron shaft from that old corn mill that I broke up when I go back up to Orkney on holiday, long wait I know but your not too far away and will be welcome to what I find.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

Are you talking about Wrought iron/Puddled iron, it is still available, see here:
http://www.realwroughtiron.com
I have a few 6' lengths in various sizes left over from my smithying days, used to use it on high class restoration jobs.

 

[MattF]

It certainly is not and you appear like me, you don't like to change or modernise.

I'm definitely becoming technophobic and more old fashioned as I age. Gert oft tells me I was born 100 years too late. Newer most definitely isn't always better. Especially where the workshop equipment is concerned, I prefer to stick with older methods and materials, especially seeing as a lot of the stuff is knocking on or over antique in age.

I don't know what the name for the old stuff is, we just called it "iron". I remember the blacksmith that I did my apprent with calling it "raw iron".
Mallable to me would be like a cast iron which is hammerable, like some pipe fittings etc.

I'm obviously onto a dead end with that tack then. The more info I try to find on the stuff, the more confusing it's becoming.

Next summer (2014) I may be able to find a few pieces of iron shaft from that old corn mill that I broke up when I go back up to Orkney on holiday, long wait I know but your not too far away and will be welcome to what I find.

That would be absolutely lovely if you could. It's definitely not looking like it's easy stuff to get hold of nowadays, so any additions to my currently meagre stock truly would be highly appreciated.

Are you talking about Wrought iron/Puddled iron, it is still available, see here:
http://www.realwroughtiron.com
I have a few 6' lengths in various sizes left over from my smithying days, used to use it on high class restoration jobs.

Cheers for that link. Looks useful for future reference. You honestly wouldn't think it could be so hard to try and find something which was so plentiful for so long. Looks like I'll need to keep an extra sharp eye out for any old metal from now on.