240v to 415v Phase Converter

[mm289]

Hiya,

just about to join the club and pick up a mill to refurb/commission. Don't think I'll reach Andy's level with his Tom but you never know

Anyway's need to get a 3ph supply rigged and probably going to go down the Digital converter route.

You can buy plug n play systems from Drives Direct, or the converter itself like this one http://www.invertersdirect.co.uk/Product/DSA7/7%C2%BD-HP-220V-to-415V-3-PHASE-DIGITAL-PLUG-PLAY-CONVERTER-INVERTER

The converter on its own is way ceaper so wondered if anyone had any experience of programming these for the specific machine?

I will have multiple motors for the spindle plus cross feeds and suds etc and the spindle motor at least is 415v and not delta 240 compatible as far as I can see so the plan is to use the converter to give me a 415v supply I can plumb into the mills main board and run the motors of the original switches/wiring.

Any thoughts?

Cheers,

MM

 

[brewdexta]

Hi MM

I'm not aware of any easily available 240 single phase to 415v 3 phase inverters/converters, I've only used single to 3 phase inverters with compatible motors. If the motors don't check out to be delta capable, you could try opening them up and finding the star point.

Cheers
Andy

 

[piman]

Hello MM,

I've used a Drives Direct 240 to 415 converter for some time and I have not had the slightest problem with it. Smaller than the one in your link and connected to a single motor. However these converters must be connected directly to the motor and not have a contactor between it and the motor so multiple drives probably need individual converters. I would talk to Drives Direct, I found them very helpful when I bought mine.

Alec

 

[mr_splatter]

If you want to power the whole machine without changing any of the wiring the your options are really only the 'plug and play' like you linked to or a rotary or static converter which I know a lot of people are happy with. Personally I wouldn't go to the expense of a plug and play to do this because they are very expensive and in this mode you can't use the variable speed features etc. Also you need to overate because of initial current draw which pushes up the price. I would go for one of the old fashioned rotary or statics.
The normal digital converters usually are wired directly to the motors and can't have switchgear in between.
On my old Bridgeport I ripped out all the old wiring and redid it with two digital converters, one running the spindle and the other doing the table motor. On my old mill the wiring wasn't complicated but I know it gets tricky on some of the newer machines with electronic table feeds.
I would double check the motors or take to a rewind shop. A lot can be changed to 240v. Remember also that some 415v contactors won't work on 240v.
BTW - I found the guy at Drives Direct very helpful (no connection)

 

[Burdekin]

I use a Boost Energy Converter and have no issues. Drives my M300 lathe and Harrison mill and is basically plug and play.

 

[printcom]

I have got to agree with Burdekin, I have just been down this road and unless you specifically need the variable speed control a rotary converter is the easiest way to go - its also the cheapest. I picked up a 4hp Boost energy systems converter on ebay at a very reasonable price.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

I have an ancient Transwave 8hp static 240 to 415 converter, I tune it to run the 5.5hp motor on my spindle moulder which I switch on before I run any of the other machines in the workshop, the spindle moulder acts as a 'rotary' part of a converter. As I understand it the back EMF (electro motive force) balances out the 3 phases.
I use this to run motors from suds pumps up to the large motors on the mechanical press and the Mubea 50 ton ironworker.
The Spindle moulder is cast iron and so well balanced I hardly notice it running in the background!

 

[mm289]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I have ruled out a standard inverter/VFD as I know they need wiring direct to the motor and I have too many motors to make it feasible - also I don't need variable speed control on the mill, in 415v format it has a 2 speed motor plus 6 (I think) belt speeds which should do me for now.

That left me with looking at a way of supplying 415v to the machine. I had ruled out statics, and tbh had ruled out rotary's as a lot of feedback seems to say they are very noisy and expensive/inefficient to run. Having seen Burdekin and Printcom's posts though I might reconsider this option - do you guys have any posts showing your setup or more comments on how it works for you?

On the plug n play I am looking at a 5 or 7.5 hp drive as you need 3 x startup cover (and both drives allow a 150% overload for 30 secs or a min or something). The bit I don't know is how easy they are to program and setup though.

Drives Direct do a plu n play option in an enclosure pre programmed and ?with some filters? (not sure what these are) but it is about £500 more than just buying the drive I linked to above.

There is also a drive on e-bay at the moment which is pretty cheap but i would need to re-program for my setup.

So questions are:
1. Real life experience of rotary drives - bit more info from those using them..
2. Anyone got any experience of programming a DSA5 or DSA7 (from Drives Direct) or know what the difference is between one of thes on its own and a plug n play with enclosure and filters which is £500 more.

PS - when i get the mill I will put some pics etc up - me and Printcom can swop stories on setting up our first mills

Cheers,

MM

 

[mr_splatter]

I don't have experience of the actual drives you mention but certainly I had no problem setting mine up from scratch (they came from Direct Drives). The manuals tend to show loads and loads of options but in reality it is usually only a few parameter need changing if any. More important that they are wired correctly in the first place and take it slowly step by step. I don't think you will have any problems. I think for manual operation i.e. start/stop from drive mine worked out of the box.

If I was using a second hand one there are a few things I would do.
1) See if you can see it working before you buy. Only because if you have problems getting it going you may think it is faulty before realising it is a simple parameter issue.
2) Set back to factory defaults so you know where you are starting from.

For your requirement wiring should be straightforward because you just need to connect to the machine supply.

 

[langy]

I got my 4hp unit from Drives Direct about 5 years ago, wired up easily and the help & advice I got from them was excellent.

 

[printcom]

Having seen Burdekin and Printcom's posts though I might reconsider this option - do you guys have any posts showing your setup or more comments on how it works for you?

I don't have any posts but it went like this,
1 find the converter on ebay
2 Pay the man and pick up coverter
3 Put plug on lathe
4 Turn it on and start playing.

It really was that easy, as for efficiency I wouldn't have a clue all I know is that it runs my lathe and bandsaw (not at the same time) and while it is not silent the noise is not intrusive and you cant hear it at all when the lathe is running.
And I got change out of £400 nicker.

I've just noticed a transwave 10 HP on ebay, it might be worth a look.

 

[mm289]

I've just noticed a transwave 10 HP on ebay, it might be worth a look.

Thanks, have also found a Boost Energy one that I am following , sounds like the easiest way to go as no setup needed. Might still investigate the Direct Drives as well as there is one of these going cheapish on the 'bay as well.

Will keep you posted

Cheers,

MM

 

[Burdekin]

I posted a couple of vids on youtube, google "Boost energy M300" and you will find them. I also did a thread on here when looking for options so just search this forum and you'll find my thread and others.

 

[hareng]

Got two of them units and are true 'Plug and Play'
Which means no need to set up, just plug the thing in it delivers 400V proper 3ph from a single ph 240V input.
They are meant for power workshops and no need to unplug any machine!

Absolutely no need to wire direct to motor as said earlier its does same job as a rotary and static.
Mine powers to two 3ph sockets of which I leave plugged in the lathe and polisher. Just switch the things on, no slow start nothing going through original control panel and contactors, coolant the lot.

I suggest you have a look at the prices of Transwave rotary convertors, you will find same price if not dearer than in first OP's link. Got one of them as well.

Noticed last week that boost energy it sold just now for £465, must be something up. £1105 new plus carriage £45 that's £200+ dearer than the equivalent digital.

 

[printcom]

Noticed last week that boost energy it sold just now for £465, must be something up. £1105 new plus carriage £45 that's £200+ dearer than the equivalent digital.

Your using a direct comparison which does not stack up in usability.
The inverter you mention may be rated for 7.5 HP but it wont start a 7.5HP motor due to the initial surge, to do that you will probably need to go up a few models, not so with the rotary converter. If all he is running is a 2HP Mill then all he needs is a 2HP converter - about half the price of the inverter.

 

[langy]

Got two of them units and are true 'Plug and Play'
Which means no need to set up, just plug the thing in it delivers 400V proper 3ph from a single ph 240V input.
They are meant for power workshops and no need to unplug any machine!

Absolutely no need to wire direct to motor as said earlier its does same job as a rotary and static.
Mine powers to two 3ph sockets of which I leave plugged in the lathe and polisher. Just switch the things on, no slow start nothing going through original control panel and contactors, coolant the lot.

I suggest you have a look at the prices of Transwave rotary convertors, you will find same price if not dearer than in first OP's link. Got one of them as well.

Noticed last week that boost energy it sold just now for £465, must be something up. £1105 new plus carriage £45 that's £200+ dearer than the equivalent digital.

My digital unit is the same, I just fire up the inverter and then just switch my lathe or polisher on by the original switch gear.

 

[mm289]

Got two of them units and are true 'Plug and Play'
Which means no need to set up, just plug the thing in it delivers 400V proper 3ph from a single ph 240V input.
They are meant for power workshops and no need to unplug any machine!

I presume you mean the Drives Direct ones I linked to?

Noticed last week that boost energy it sold just now for £465, must be something up. £1105 new plus carriage £45 that's £200+ dearer than the equivalent digital.

Yeh I was the 2nd bidder, thought it was a good price but didn't want to go more than £450 given I couldn't see/test it.

To printcom's comment below I am looking at a 7.5hp DD converter to give me the ability to run a second machine in the future but that is £1400 which is a lot of money hence looking at 2nd hand units or rotary's

Will keep looking, have a couple of weeks before I collect the mill, thanks for the info guys

Cheers,

MM

 

[mm289]

@ Langy & Hareng

To clarify my last post, is the unit your using like this



or is did it come in an enclosure with an FRI and sine wave filter?

Reason for asking is the one pictured is £900, the equivalent "plug 'n play" version is £1400. The difference as far as I can tell is it is put in an enclosure, has an FRI and sine filter and is pre-programmed to the machine.

Trying to figure if I need all that as it is £500 more!!!

Cheers,

MM

 

[ford34/2]

Inverter

I have this one, not too sure of your DSA5/7 ref numbers, simple plug and play, or connect 240v electric and connect 415v motor, hit start and off you go, do check your incoming supply it wants a few amps. what else do you want to know, I also have a Jaguar and a Mitsubishi, both on 220V/3 phase.The unit is direct connectible to the motor. Instructions and other stuff downloadable from Site and Dave is an Ace supplier, if you get stuck ring him, sometimes a bit slow with the E mails.Manual::
http://www.drivesdirect.co.uk/Downloads/7200MA manual.pdf

Stan

I have the optional Sine wave thing and it generates a neutral-- never been connected, can send pic if required.

 

[mm289]

Thanks Stan.

Dave quoted me for what he calls the "plug n play" option which was a lot more expensive than just buying the box pictured above (£895 vs £1395) so I was trying to understand if I needed anything that was in the p 'n p vesrion. In reality it sounds like I don't but wanted to get some feedback which is coming through from you guys, which is appreciated

Cheers,

MM