CCTV Image Quality for use in Court

[wannabewelder]

Hi guys
I'm thinking of installing a CCTV system at home and I've been looking at the CCTV threads on the forum.
I'm fortunate to be in a low crime area but when we were burgled some years ago there were issues with some of the evidence the police collected being "inadmissable as evidence" when the case went to court.
I just wonder if there's a standard that the CCTV images / system needs to meet so that, when the worst happens, I don't get told that the images aren't of high enough definition etc. etc.
I'd rather spend a few more ££££ on a system now with the knowledge that the results would be good enough to stand in court at some time in the future.

Any thoughts?

Regaeds

Wannabe

 

[madkayaker]

I think its more to do with signage and data protection rights than quality of image. Most of the decent 4 camera kits are good quality these days

 

[Dev]

The home office has guidance relating to how to get the best use out ofcctv. Theres a (very colourful) copy here http://www.dvisystems.co.uk/id104.html

As an individual you don't really need to worry about DPA.

I will say its worth paying a little bit more for a reliable recorder. There's no point having a great picture if the recorder crashed and didn't save it when something happens.

 

[the snooper]

the picture quality on the cmos type camera are not as good as ccd, most cheap systems use cmos, its like most things you get what you pay for

 

[Shox Dr]

Dont know about the legal aspect, but make sure the system can record on all channels at a minimun of 100fps simultaneously

 

[drivewasher]

It's down to the police's attitude really.
We have a 4 channel system that records to a hard drive set at best image which is very good stores all channels for 30days before re-writing over day 1.
The local ****** stole a camera he stood on the skip bin climbed up and rippe camera off wall. This got him FULL FACE on the hard drive. Everyone we showed vid to named him first time. Plod shows up looks at vid and says we all know it's him but in court it would be enough to doubt it so nothing ever happened. Well the police did nothing I'll say no more

 

[J_K]

Dont know about the legal aspect, but make sure the system can record on all channels at a minimun of 100fps simultaneously

They normally record all 4 video streams at 25fps which adds up to 100fps overall.
Just didn;t want the op searching for something unobtainable or £000's more than is practical..

I use http://www.cctvdirect.co.uk/?gclid=CIiFh8Cf6rUCFePHtAodqBwAQw for all the CCTV stuff at work. I am nothing to do with them, just passing on the name of a good company.

Basically, get the best you can afford. The newer 1080P HD 1100tvl cams look good. The highest I've got is 640tvl which was as good as it got when I bought them.

Another thing you want to add is a microphone. Just so you can hear them talk. They may have a erm.. regional accent that could make it easier to identify them.

Change halogen flood lights for LED ones. I had 10 minutes of CCTV footage of some irish accented gentlemen rocking the posts in the yard with a broom handle to get the filament to break. Then another 2 hours of them stealing all sorts of metals.
All handed to the police. 3 years and still no arrests

 

[Landy Lad]

It's down to the police's attitude really.
We have a 4 channel system that records to a hard drive set at best image which is very good stores all channels for 30days before re-writing over day 1.
The local ****** stole a camera he stood on the skip bin climbed up and rippe camera off wall. This got him FULL FACE on the hard drive. Everyone we showed vid to named him first time. Plod shows up looks at vid and says we all know it's him but in court it would be enough to doubt it so nothing ever happened. Well the police did nothing I'll say no more

I looked into it, we are out in the sticks, and my sheds and the neighbours have been broken into 4 times in the last year. My brother installed cctv, and when he looked into it, he was told that the only way it is of use in court, is if the recorder is in a locked cabinet, which when installed the police check, lock and keep the keys. If its not locked, he was also told that if the police know who the culprit is, and go to his/her house and confront with the video footage and they hold their hands up its all good, if they still deny it, you couldn't use it in court. Something to do with being able to tamper with the recorder.

I don't know how true it is, he still put cctv up.

I asked the copper that visited us about what he had been told, and he said he didn't know, but he could see what was meant.

I also asked him about putting post alarms in my garden and workshop, and if they were legal he didn't know what they were. When I explained that when triggered they fired a blank cartridge, he said, "oh, that sounds like a good idea". And couldn't see a problem, then I said, "so if I come out one morning and someone has broken into my shed, post alarm has gone off and they had a heart attack and was dead on the drive, is that still ok?" Ah he said, I see what you mean. And guess what he didn't know how you would stand.

 

[Dev]

I looked into it, we are out in the sticks, and my sheds and the neighbours have been broken into 4 times in the last year. My brother installed cctv, and when he looked into it, he was told that the only way it is of use in court, is if the recorder is in a locked cabinet, which when installed the police check, lock and keep the keys. If its not locked, he was also told that if the police know who the culprit is, and go to his/her house and confront with the video footage and they hold their hands up its all good, if they still deny it, you couldn't use it in court. Something to do with being able to tamper with the recorder.

Whoever told him that is talking nonsense. Police use third party CCTV in court every day, shop lifting, forecourt drive offs, pub fights, commercial burglaries. The only reason the recorder needs to be locked up is to stop it being nicked as well!

Here's the home office recommendations from that link:

QUALITY
WHAT RESOLUTION? WHAT COMPRESSION? HOW MANY PICTURES PER SECOND?
1. Specify your requirement - decide what you want to see and where, and select a system that will do it.
2. View the recorded pictures or print out, not the live screen, to assess the system performance.
3. The system clock should be set correctly and maintained (taking account of GMT and BST).
4. Picture quality should not be reduced to fit the available storage capacity of the system.
5. Regular maintenance should be conducted on all aspects of the system.

STORAGE
WHAT SHOULD I KEEP? HOW SHOULD I KEEP IT?
6. The system should be operated and recorded pictures retained in a secure environment.
7. Electronic access controls, such as passwords or encryption, should not prevent authorised access to the system or recordings.
8. The system should have sufficient storage capacity for 31 days good quality pictures.
9. The system should be capable of securing relevant pictures for review or export at a later date.

EXPORT
HOW MUCH VIDEO SHOULD THE SYSTEM EXPORT AND IN WHAT FORMAT?
10. A system operator should be available who is able to replay and export recordings.
11. A simple system operator’s manual should be available locally to assist with replay and export.
12. The operator should know the retention period of the system and export time for various amounts of data.
13. The system should be able to quickly export video and stills to a removable storage-medium, with time and date integral to the relevant picture.
14. Export should include any software needed to view or replay the pictures.
15. The system should have an export method proportionate to the storage capacity.
16. Pictures should be exported in the native file format at the same quality that they were stored on the system.

PLAYBACK
CAN THE PICTURES BE EASILY VIEWED?
17. The playback software should:
• have variable speed control including frame by frame, forward and reverse viewing;
• display single and multiple cameras and maintain aspect ratio i.e. the same relative height and width;
• display a single camera at full resolution;
• permit the recording from each camera to be searched by time and date;
• allow printing and/or saving (e.g. bitmap) of pictures with time and date.
18. The time and date associated with each picture should be legible.
19. Once exported to removable media it should be possible to replay the files immediately.

post alarm has gone off and they had a heart attack and was dead on the drive, is that still ok?

If he was dead who would there be to say the post alarm had gone off?

 

[brewdexta]

If your IT savvy a really good bit of software is Zoneminder. It runs on Linux and requires a bit of fettling to install so not for your average Windoze user. But its free and so is Linux.

Any half decent server with a reasonable size disk will do. You can get HP min servers for a couple of hundred quid with 4 drive bays so you can get a lot of storage.

If you buy a camera with motion detection etc. they are a bit limited in what they can do and you often get false alarms. With zoneminder you send all the images to the server and then you can tell it what parts of the image to look for motion, so you can exclude trees, cat flaps etc. It will then send the usual alerts and archive video and snapshots either when motion is detected - no point going into all the functions - see here instead

I currently have a Foscam IP camera under test with an old server that I had knocking about. I haven't spent much time with it recently, I'm waiting for the POE version to be available in the UK and as I work in IT, the lure of the workshop is far stronger than tinkering with IT so I'm in no rush.

POE is power over Ethernet. Wireless camera's are a bit pointless as you still need to get power to them. With POE you plug your cameras and server into a switch and the switch supplies power over the same cable that you get the images over. It's low voltage DC so more convenient when you have an external camera and the CAT5 cable is cheap as chips. POE switches are about 75 quid for an 8 port switch with 4 POE ports.

Picture image is pretty good with both ambient light and Infra red.

Cheers
Andy

 

[wannabewelder]

Thanks

Hi guys
Great advice! It's better to come on here and get answers from people who know, rather than a lot of contradictory info. from people with (financial or otherwise) axes to grind.
Dev - the info. in the link is great - it's what I was looking for; and as for all things computer there's always the need for backing up the data.
Drivewasher's situation is pretty much what I wanted to avoid - it's staggering that when it's apparently "handed to them on a plate" no action is taken!
I've taken all the info. on board and thank you guys for taking the time to help.
I think the only question now is "How resistant are the vandal resistant cameras" but I think I can sort that one myself. - A bit like JK's filament in the LED floodlight - pretty much indestructible.

Regards

Wannabe