A Few Questions.

[tiger260]

Hi all and can I just take this opportunity to say thanks for this forum.

I have reached the point where I have decided that I need a mig welder in my life.
I have been using a old borrowed Clarke 100e mk2 for a while but it really is past it's best and I spend more time fixing something than using it.

I think I will be going for a gassed mig with a refillable bottle not only because of the advantages over gassless but also because I imagine it is cheaper in the long run because of the expense of cored wire and disposeable bottles.

As there is a lot of good things said of the Clarke migs I was thinking of getting one of these, but I am a little confused about which one to get.
There seeems to be a few with very similar specification like the 150TE, 151TE and 160TM.

It will be mainly used for car bodywork but also for welding thicker steel too, probably upto around 3 to 5mm.
As I'm quite inexperienced, I like the facility for the welder to auto set the wire feed to the power but I don't know if any of these do this.

What requlator do gassed welders come with?
I've read that some people use CO2 bottles from pubs etc.
Are all gas bottles the same. Also, what is the best gas to use?

I never thought that buying a welder could be so complicated.

Many thanks!

 

[cumbriasteve]

I think the range of Clarkes have minor differences but nor sure what.

Most Clarkes come with the disposable bottle regs, some firms supply a proper reg.

All gas bottle are different, types of gas governs the regulator you need.

CO2 is ok but not as good as a mix gas, it runs hotter and is a touch unfriendly on the thin stuff, although loads of people using it, just takes a bit more practice.

For thin metal 95/5 Argon /CO2
Above 3mm 80/20 Argon /CO2

Those are rough guides, there is a touch of oxy in there too, probably the 95/5 will be best for you.

A handy guy for a crack is Steve of Weldequip, will be able to advise you on all aspects.

 

[ford34/2]

Clarke

not too sure where you are, but remember Machine mart have VAT free days comming up soon, if you have a branch in your area,
if your near newcastle upon tyne, too late it was 16th and 23 OCT. ( at least that whats on my invite.)

Stan

 

[tiger260]

Hi Stan, thanks for that. I forgot about MMs vat free days.

I live near Derby btw.

I have just realised that my choice of migs is limited by by power supply.
I quite liked the looks of the Clarke 160TM, but I have just read that this and the 151 TE can't b run from a 13amp socket.

 

[keith19]

Take no notice. I run a Clarke 151 EN from a 13 Amp socket all the time. So do dozens more on here. It's just that your 13 Amp plug may blow a fuse or two now and then if you try to weld longish seams at the top end of the range, say 140 - 160 Amps.
The manufacturers like to cover their collective backsides, that's all.

 

[tiger260]

Take no notice. I run a Clarke 151 EN from a 13 Amp socket all the time. So do dozens more on here. It's just that your 13 Amp plug may blow a fuse or two now and then if you try to weld longish seams at the top end of the range, say 140 - 160 Amps.
The manufacturers like to cover their collective backsides, that's all.

Ah, I see. We have an Olde Worlde fuse box in our house so I didn't want to take any chances. Changing the fuse wire is a bit of a pain.

Right, with those back on the menu, what Clarke migs can use refillable bottles apart from the 160TM?

Thanks.

 

[keith19]

Most of them, apart from one or two gasless only types, which you aren't looking at. But you will need a proper regulator.
Some come with a regulator for a refillable bottle, and some don't, depending on the deal, so read the list of what you get pretty carefully. You should also decide on which gas you are mostly going to use, as different regs will be needed for different gases. So look at gas suppliers in your area first, see what's available, and at what cost. Argon/C02 mix is easier to use, less spatter, but costs more. C02 'pub gas' is cheapest, bit harsher arc, bit more difficult to use, but welds okay with lots of practice.
This is the sort of reg you will be looking at for Argon/C02 mix: http://www.weldequip.com/argonmix-conversion-kit.htm
C02 reg lower down the page.

 

[tiger260]

Well I want to make life as easy for myself as possible given my inexperience so I will use an argon/co2 mix if possible.
As far as availablilty in my area is concerned, I wouldn't know where to start looking tbh. I had naively assumed that it would be very widely available. It never occurred to me that it wouldn't be.

 

[keith19]

It's not just availability, it's price which is often the deciding factor.
I used to get argon/c02 mix from BOC for years, but they are very pricey, partly because they charge you first for annual rental of the bottle, plus a deposit on the bottle the first time you get one, plus the cost of the gas when you replace the bottle, plus a charge for you picking up your cylinder of gas from their depot!
Some smaller firms in some areas only charge you for the bottle and the gas, no annual rental and no pickup charges. Delivery charges vary with distance of course.
So look through the gas supplies section on here and check up on suppliers in your area:
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/wiki/Gas_Suppliers

 

[piman]

Hello Tiger,

"Ah, I see. We have an Olde Worlde fuse box in our house so I didn't want to take any chances. Changing the fuse wire is a bit of a pain."

You used to be able to get plug in breakers for the old style fuse boxes, take the fuse out and plug in the breaker. Worth asking an electrical wholesaler to see if you can still get them?

Alec

 

[brightspark]

Hello Tiger,

"Ah, I see. We have an Olde Worlde fuse box in our house so I didn't want to take any chances. Changing the fuse wire is a bit of a pain."

You used to be able to get plug in breakers for the old style fuse boxes, take the fuse out and plug in the breaker. Worth asking an electrical wholesaler to see if you can still get them?

Alec[/QUOTE:wylex make them still for there units. just unscrew the fuse carrier refit new carrier and plug in. there about 8 quid i think .i normaly sling em

 

[tiger260]

It's not just availability, it's price which is often the deciding factor.
I used to get argon/c02 mix from BOC for years, but they are very pricey, partly because they charge you first for annual rental of the bottle, plus a deposit on the bottle the first time you get one, plus the cost of the gas when you replace the bottle, plus a charge for you picking up your cylinder of gas from their depot!
Some smaller firms in some areas only charge you for the bottle and the gas, no annual rental and no pickup charges. Delivery charges vary with distance of course.
So look through the gas supplies section on here and check up on suppliers in your area:
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/wiki/Gas_Suppliers

Only just spotted this. (blind ****)
Thanks Keith. There is one in Derby so if they aren't going to rape me, that will be handy.
Having said that, using a refill bottle should mean I don't see much of them.

All I have to do now is figure out which welder to buy and we are set.

 

[tiger260]

Great news. I now have a card for the Machine Mart tax free events in the next week so that will save me some cash.

I've decided that a small bottle or large bottle gas supply isn't terribly important right now as it isn't expensive to upgrade as and when I want to.

So, now it's just a matter of picking from a few welders which one I should have and this is where the experience of you guys comes in.

The Clarke 150TE and 151TE are both gassed, rated at 150 amps and cost £299 and have a few differences between them like a nicer case and an access door.
The 151EN and 160EN are rated at 150amps but require upgrading to gas.
The 151EN is £234 and the 160EN is £240.

The 152 is rated at 140amps, needs a gas kit but is only £192.
Seems like a large drop in price for the loss of 10amps.
I can't see how much a gas kit for the gassless ones costs though.

And, the 160TM which runs on large bottles but brings the problems of the bigger bottle like the rent etc with it, but the gas lasts longer. 150amps, £335.

Now, are all these welders going to be pretty much the same as eachother apart from the gas situation and a few cosmetic differences or are there fundamental operating differences which makes some stand out from the crowd.
I don't now enough about welders to know.

Many thanks for any help you can offer.

 

[tiger260]

Another question. Sorry.

How big, or more importantly, small are the refillable bottles or can they be?
Space is absolutely at a premium in my garage which is why a have mixed feelings towards the 160TM as a big bottle would get in the way terribly.
I was hoping to park the welder under the bench when nor in use and I haven't got anywhere to put a big bottle.

This finding a welder lark is hard work.

Oh, and is there a list anywhere of rent free gas suppliers?

 

[octo0072000]

welder

you need to be looking at the duty cycle on the welder
some only have a 20%duty cycle at 130 amps the more you pay the better the duty cycle
so so at full wack it will run about 12 mins of constant welding
that's a lot of weld
with car body work it;s 90% preparation 10% welding
have a look at this from weldequip also free shipping

http://www.weldequip.com/clarke-160tm.htm

 

[tiger260]

you need to be looking at the duty cycle on the welder
some only have a 20%duty cycle at 130 amps the more you pay the better the duty cycle
so so at full wack it will run about 12 mins of constant welding
that's a lot of weld
with car body work it;s 90% preparation 10% welding
have a look at this from weldequip also free shipping

http://www.weldequip.com/clarke-160tm.htm[/QUOTE

Thanks for the reply.

The 160 TM is at the top of my shopping list but as I mentioned I have concerns about being able to get a rent free bottle that isn't going to be too big. I can't emphasise enough how little space I have.

I have to honest too that there is still a niggling little voice at the back of my mind that keeps saying that it doesn't feel right to have it running on a 13amp plug.
Damn my demons.

 

[keith19]

Don't worry about it, tiger, it can only blow a fuse.
The welder just goes dead, is all. If you try to run 12 mins of continuous weld at top output any of the small Clarkes -130 to 160 series - are likely to cut out thru' overheating before you get there. Before that they kind of run out of breath, they seem to slow up a bit, make scouring noises from the box, as if they are labouring to produce enough current. About 30 cm continuous on 5 mm is about the most I've managed in one go. (151EN). Individual m/cs may differ slightly, of course.
Re the bottle, would a half size bottle fit under your bench? Might not on the welder, but you could maybe lift it onto the floor for storage. Before you settle on a bottle size check what height you've got, and don't forget to allow for the regulator, which you don't really want to take off the bottle every time you put it away.

 

[tiger260]

I'm really sorry that this is going on a bit. You guys must be sick of me waffling on.

I've managed to narrow down my search a little.
As I've already mentioned, I am very tight on space and the mig will have to live under the bench when not in use so it can't be any higher than 530mm because of the drawers in the bench containing my tools.

Unfortunately, that knocks a lot of the welders out of the running, which is annoying but necessary.
The Clarke 151TE will fit but the 160TM won't which is annoying because they are practically the same price and I assume the 160TM is the better machine of the 2.

The MM catalogue says that the 160TM has a professional torch. Is it going to be better than the torch on the 151TE or basically the same?

I've also had a good think and if I'm honest with myself, I don't think I'm going to use it enough to justify a refill bottle.
I know the disposables only last for 6 minutes but if that's the actual welding time, I think I can live with that.

I've just noticed that the 151EN may fit if i remove the handle extension but it does have a different duty cycle to the 151TE.
Does this mean that the 151TE will be the better machine?
Thanks once again.

 

[tiger260]

Don't worry about it, tiger, it can only blow a fuse.
The welder just goes dead, is all. If you try to run 12 mins of continuous weld at top output any of the small Clarkes -130 to 160 series - are likely to cut out thru' overheating before you get there. Before that they kind of run out of breath, they seem to slow up a bit, make scouring noises from the box, as if they are labouring to produce enough current. About 30 cm continuous on 5 mm is about the most I've managed in one go. (151EN). Individual m/cs may differ slightly, of course.
Re the bottle, would a half size bottle fit under your bench? Might not on the welder, but you could maybe lift it onto the floor for storage. Before you settle on a bottle size check what height you've got, and don't forget to allow for the regulator, which you don't really want to take off the bottle every time you put it away.

Thanks a lot Keith. Niggling voices have been sorted with that.
Only just read this as it took me some time to create my latest post.

 

[keith19]

On paper the 151TE has approx 20% better duty cycle than the 151EN. This means about another minute of welding at the top end of the range, past where the 151EN might go down.

Whether this works out in practice I don't know, it would be interesting to do a run on several Clarke models, set up the same, with the same guy welding on the same thickness of metal, just to see how it works out in practical duty cycle times.

What it should mean is that the 151TE has a bit more in reserve, which is always useful, but it must be to do with the windings, because both have the same 150 amp top output.

The 151TE also has a slightly lower open circuit (OCV)voltage output range of 18 - 28, as opposed to the 21 - 32 of the 151EN.
This sort of OCV difference means little to any experienced welder, who automatically compensates, but may make the 151TE slightly easier to use for a beginner on thin metal.

Re the 160TM, it may have what they call a 'professional' torch, but it's not a proper Euro torch, which can be removed easily from a machine. The TM one looks like its cable goes right through the front of the m/c.