Tig Welder - what do i "actualy need"

[ProCage]

Hi there, first post so hi :waves:

I build roll cages for a living, and I’m using CDS Clubman5000 steel at the moment, and I’m finding that my Mig welder is struggling to penertrate as much as I would like it too.. Specially in the hard to reach places of the cage.

I learnt to weld with a TIG welder and as a result I push my welds which I find easier, but everyone keeps telling me I’m wrong lol

I'm looking to buy a TIG for use on the cages and mainly for the T45 metals, I would like to know what functions I would actually need to look for in the unit ?

I've been down to my local welder shop that I happen to know from buying allot of stuff off him and he is going to show me trough a few units tomorrow, he has a few s/h units and mainly new. (As much as the s/h prices look really good, I want a warranty as I don't want a broken welder in 4 months time) so I think it needs to be a new unit. Not to mention, down time is not an option.

My budget is around £1000, the thickness of metal I use is around 2mm-6mm tops and thinner on the t45, and I have 3phase and single phase at my unit so I’m open to what ever.

I just wanted some guidance on what to look for and the "right questions to ask"

I'm one of these people that can pick up the TIG and weld with it to a point, then looking at all the fancy stuff makes my head hurt as I’ve never had time to play with one, as I’m always in a hurry to get the job done, luckily I have always had someone around that can set it up and all I have to do is adjust the heat. IF that makes sense. I was down Prodrive in Banbury with a friend that works there, and he was showing me the nice Tig welders they have, and I loved the pulse (square wave ?) timer function, second on second off... it was so nice to weld with, which made me decide to cough up for a TIG.

Don't get me wrong, I’m not a bad welder at all, otherwise I wouldn't be in the trade I do, but I want to neaten the welds and make more penetration (mig is normally flat out )

Thanx in advance, open to all commnets

 

[irondarren]

For a budget of £1000 you should get a nice quality unit DC, if you want the ability to weld ally then you are looking at £2000 for a quality unit. You have two choices either a transformer type unit or an inverter, inverters are far more popular these days. Personally i wouldn't buy a second hand inverter unit, they are a very complicated piece of electronics.

I have an inverter fusion 200 phf, which has the pulse function you mention on it, it also allows MMA (arc) welding at 180amps, duty cycle is excellent http://www.inverterfusion.com/ fusions website. weldequip, on the forum sells the fusion units at a sensible price.
Diy welding, on the forum sells butters inverter units (cant comment on quality as i dont own one) http://www.buttersamt.com/, Stay very clear of cheap chinese made ones that are normally sold on ebay as there will be no service back up on them

 

[ProCage]

Thanx for the reply, i will check the links out and see what i think.

I see what your saying, the AC is what makes the units expensive, well, in that sence, i guess an extra £1000 to just do alloy weld is not such a great idea.

I would sooner get something very good with less gismos then something that does everything but not so well, if that makes sence.

Thanx again, i'm really interested for you guys to point me out a few units that really does my £1k justice.

 

[ProCage]

actuatly could you tell me the pros and cons of transformer type vs inverter.

how would it affect the weld quality ?

Thanx guys.

 

[irondarren]

Transformers are old technology, power hungry in terms you have to put in a lot more power than you get out. They are heavy and not portable, having said that are generally very reliable.

Inverters are new technology, power efficient, nice and portable normally around 10kgs, but they are a very complicated piece of electronics.

A good quality inverter or a big transformer type TIG unit will both give good smooth welds, a bad quality unit will give poor welding characteristics (chinese made). I have never TIG welded with a transformer unit, but when stick welding, there is little to compare from an oxford type arc welder (big fat oil cooled units) and a modern inverter.

Ill give you a link to MTA they sell various type TIG units http://www.migtigarc.co.uk/, there are prices as well. I believe you would get a better deal on price from weldequip on the fusion units, and a better deal on the butters units from Diy welding, it seems to work that way both, do seem to give forum members a slightly better deal.

 

[irondarren]

I assume you have an automatic welding helmet etc. One thing i forgot, ideally for tig it is better to have a foot pedal to control a TIG. The foot pedal allows you to control power output etc, by just flooring the pedal a bit more or less, it is easy enough to manage without a foot pedal (i do).

 

[ProCage]

My only concern is it has to be really robust, as its going to be in a busy workshop and may get knocked from time to time, and the fusion units look amazing bits of kit, but they look a bit "cute" ... but i'm no expert (hence why i'm here)

I feel like i'm getting more for my money in a bigger unit.. i know that sounds backwards but they look like they could take more stick (no punn attended).

Am i totally wrong, smaller is much better ?

turn my world up side down why don't you

 

[ProCage]

I assume you have an automatic welding helmet etc. One thing i forgot, ideally for tig it is better to have a foot pedal to control a TIG. The foot pedal allows you to control power output etc, by just flooring the pedal a bit more or less, it is easy enough to manage without a foot pedal (i do).

Yeah i have a really high quality mask, it has loads of fuctions from speed reaction, how dark, and it can be set for time delay (good with pulse)

Problem is, with cages, i'm normaly always on my knees or on my back so i don't think the pedal would work for me tbh.

Ta.

 

[shenion]

Transformer units tend to have fixed settings. My 34-year old Airco has only a few features, post flow, current, HF start on/off/continuous, current and AC balance. The AC balance it a big knife switch on the side of the machine. Has two settings, ON and OFF (an is labeled metallic/TIG).

It works great and is more than I need. You can't beat the transformer machines for simplicity and reliability.

It is inefficient, especially at higher currents, probably 65%. That means it wants 107 amps in at the full 470A out

An inverter will be more efficient, typical is 80-85%. That can help with limited input power situations. They are also microprocessor controlled, so they can have more features like slope up/down, preflow, continuously variable AC balance, and pulse mode.

But, with all the parts in a big switching supply, microprocessor, there is a lot more to fail. You need a reputable supplier with good service.

2k seems a lot for an AC TIG. I can get a Miller EconoTIG AC/DC 150A new for $1500US. Should be enough for your needs. There has got to be other suppliers there with similar machines.

Of course you can get a Chinese AC/DC, pulse 200A TIG for about £400. But reliability is an issue and if it breaks, shipping it back and waiting weeks for repair/replacement will be a big problem. Many also don't have a footpedal.

Used, transformer units are good as they are likely to last (need to test first). I am leery of used inverter units of fleabay.

Check DIYwelding and weldequip. They stand behind what they sell. I would think 150A would be enough but 180-200 would be better for future needs.

I don't see a real need for lots of features. AC/DC with a footpedal will do a lot. The fancy features are useful in production settings.

 

[Rusty]

Have a look at what second hand machines are available, for your budget you should pick up a nice big 3 phase AC/DC unit, should last a lifetime ( but get a warranty )

 

[shenion]

Have a look at what second hand machines are available, for your budget you should pick up a nice big 3 phase AC/DC unit, should last a lifetime ( but get a warranty )

You will not find 3-phase transformer units as AC TIG is single-phase. Needs to be an inverter to use 3-phase.

 

[ProCage]

Hi Rusty, Yeah that is more along the lines of what i want, something thats going to last and not cause me any trouble.

I'm not convinced that the invertor type is for me, i think its a bit posh and i would sooner spend my money on a donky unit that will last and last.

So what brands Uk wise should i be looking at, and what are the best few to check out.

Ok, forget the AC, show me some good DC only TiG welders.

Thanx.

 

[ProCage]

ps i'm looking at all the links you've shown me, but there are many units, and its like car brands i could easly buy a larda

 

[ProCage]

Well i will say the fusion PHF 200 is in my price range and give me like £250 saving, will it be up to the job for welding T45 ect.

I was just thinking about it, now regardless of how it will last, they come with 24months warrenty, parts and labor.. so for 2 years i can say it will be perfect to which i would upgrade to something else after that.

bit confused right now, its a bit of a new world, i knew were i stood with migs.. i guess this is what puts alot of people off in the trade, or me

 

[ProCage]

Is the R-Tech also british made ? are they invertor types ?

(sorry to be posting alot, but i need to buy a welder this week you see, so i'm in a bit of a hurry to make my mind up)

 

[irondarren]

Dont worry about posting a lot, thats what the forum is for.
http://www.r-techwelding.co.uk/ r-techs website addy. It says on there site we speacialise in the design and manufacture of inverters etc, and displays a nice union flag on the website, so i assume they are British made, but it could be designed and made in there factory in china. Dont forget you need a tig torch as well, some supply with a torch some without, worth bearing in mind when comparing prices.

 

[Rusty]

Don't restrict yourself to a DC machine if your budget can stretch to a AC/DC machine, you never know when it'll come in handy in your line of business, I used to use TIG as an apprentice 30 odd years ago stainless and ally welding,bloody great big machine with a pedal.

Thanks for the correction Shenion.

 

[ProCage]

Yeah, well as i say, from what i've heard my mate seems to be offering me something too good to be ture, 3 phase, inverter type with all singing all dancing for £1k, so i'll have to grab the name tomorrow and get back to you.

My mig welder has done me proud and i'll defo be keeping it, its a Rand 150S, and its brilliant, i know not many people of heard of it but i tell you right now its the smoothest single roller unit i've ever used and it weld very very nice indeed.

Shame to stop using it really, but i look forward to having a tig, if i can get an AC/DC great, as you say £750 for the fusion is strong money but i'm sure its top of the line, i don't know if its worth spending an extra £1k so i can do alloy.

There is a nice unit on R-tech site, i notice they are sole distrubtors, bit worring, but there is one for £1300 ac/dc, looks nice and right up my street.

As i say, totally confused one what to go for, save some money and get a DC only, or spend a bit more and get what i want so i can do alloy.

ta.

 

[irondarren]

are you going to weld aluminium? DC tig does stainless, mild steel, etc, its only really aluminium that needs AC

 

[ProCage]

I'll ask this here, as i don't want to start another thread,

but i've been wondering as i'm a faily new company, how does the law stand of welding T45, do i need to be a cert welder for liablity ect ?

I've been trying to find out how to get my cages FIA approved, but finding it hard to find the info, just wondered if anoyne just happend to know anything on this subject... or where the best place to ask that question would be.

Long shot, but worth the ask