Any boiler(y) type installers etc., on here?

[sako243]

We have an old commercial style Ideal Buccaneer Series 2 oil fired boiler (well actually two of them) in our house. I've been refreshing/refurbishing one to get it back up and running.

Just accept that I am going to refurbish this one rather than replace with new as it's been functioning away quite happily for nearly 50 years and is perfectly serviceable compared to modern stuff. If you can find me a modern boiler that's more efficient AND lasts 50 years with only £50 spent on it then maybe I'll listen.

What I'd like to confirm is the nozzle size that should be on it.

It's an 8 section boiler rated at 62kW with a Sterling ST146 burner and Danfoss BFP11L3 pump.

I know the nozzle needs replacing and currently it's a Danfoss Q3x 60° EH 1mm rated at 3kg/h. Before I replace it with like for like I'd like to confirm if it's the right size. As it's a big commercial boiler so the manuals I've found say that the nozzle size is to be determined by the installer - but 60° hollow cone is correct. Let's also assume that anyone who's worked on it in the past (including myself) is a prat so don't trust anything they've done.

I could replace with like for like but I'd rather not start messing about with pump pressures and the like until I know the nozzle size is correct.

Also I have tried in the past to contact Ideal and they didn't even have a complete parts diagram for it and both people we spoke to were clueless so I've not even bothered with that this time.

 

[Gareth J]

50 years is pretty impressive!

Try to think of not whether a replacement boiler will last the same duration but whether a new boiler, or even a second hand newer boiler, will, over it's undoubtedly shorter life, cost less to run even factoring in more frequency replacements.

 

[sako243]

Well it went out of production in the 80s from what we can figure out so it's been going since then.

The original plumber who came (who has cut back and I can't get back) said a replacement was likely to be £10-15k and doubtful whether it'd last 10, perhaps 15 years. That buys a hell of a lot of oil to compensate for the slight efficiency saving.

Until the water jackets fail these will be kept going as long as possible and even then they're probably repairable.

 

[knighty]

does it give you enough heat out?

within reason, a smaller nozzle will be more efficient than a larger one - less heat produced but higher % of it going into the water and lower % out the chimney

google says it's about 1kg of oil for 10kw of heat, so if you have a 3kg nozzle it'll be more like 30kw than 62kw


I think (guess) my boiler has been de-rated before we moved in, it's a 3kg nozzle, in the winter we had to run the heating pretty much 24/7 to keep the place warm... but it was enough to keep it warm so I'm not going to mess with it

 

[sako243]

does it give you enough heat out?

We've had other issues so it's been difficult to judge (minor water leak in a 1.25" pipe ). The house has been warm enough when the boiler was working but it has been sooting up stuff in the past.

We had the boiler full of soot but then after the chimneys were swept then the (decent) plumber swapped the nozzle and there was a bit of debris inside when I cleaned it out recently.

At the moment it's burning dirty but whether that's down to wrong parts / worn out nozzle etc I don't know hence why I'm trying to figure out what it should be!

 

[addjunkie]

If its burning dirty you need more air, assuming the flue is clean. Or less fuel. Nozzels are not expensive, Id buy a couple and try it.

 

[gaz1]

if too yellow then you end up with more soot and burns badly

air is many of the causes not enough air being blown into the system to mix properly air to oil ratio is the same

dont forget you can change the burner to a newer type but with your model you will need spacer plates and seals as yours looks to be the older type industrial model

there is an upgrade that can be used as most indoor heaters use room heat and blown into the system however you can also preheat the air further by preheating it alot of the older type boiler rooms used preheated room air to fire there boilers up

 

[Gareth J]

Well it went out of production in the 80s from what we can figure out so it's been going since then.

The original plumber who came (who has cut back and I can't get back) said a replacement was likely to be £10-15k and doubtful whether it'd last 10, perhaps 15 years. That buys a hell of a lot of oil to compensate for the slight efficiency saving.

Until the water jackets fail these will be kept going as long as possible and even then they're probably repairable.

That's all fair enough but, I wouldn't underestimate efficiency differences. Changing our 80's boiler for a second hand one a few years old made a massive difference to oil consumption. I know it's a different scale to yours but cost ~£200 to buy and I'd guess similar to fit. Maybe £500 all in. Paid for itself over a couple of winters.

 

[waddycall]

I think keeping old stuff that’s solid in use is the way to go. I’ve serviced, repaired and condemned a lot of boilers of this type.
It’s a good idea to check if it’s leaking flue gas between the sections. The seals harden up over time, break down and get blown out. They can get so bad that you can see flames in the combustion chamber through the sides of the boiler. When they leak they shouldnt really be used due to the risk from flue gasses entering the property (your risk, your shout). The combustion chamber is under pressure as there is a high ish pressure drop in the flue ways. It won’t just pull air in like a wood burner.
Don’t down rate it - the flue may get too cold and condense causing corrosion and potentially stalling the flow.
I was just trying to work out the nozzle size you need in my EOGB app but it’s no longer supported. There might be a new one you can download. Just look for an oil nozzle sizing app and if you can get one from EOGB it’ll be spot on.

 

[waddycall]

Also get yourself a smoke pump and a draught gauge. You can borrow mine if you want

 

[addjunkie]

there is an upgrade that can be used as most indoor heaters use room heat and blown into the system however you can also preheat the air further by preheating it alot of the older type boiler rooms used preheated room air to fire there boilers up

If the air is being forced in its actually more efficient to use cold air, for the same reason many large engines pre cool air going into their turbo chargers.

 

[gaz1]

for expansion of air within a system cold air is better however preheated air creates a hotter flame

even with car engines they do use cold air into the turbo but that system has to be spot on with its mixing

alot of gas boilers now use preheated air before they hit the boilers jets ,also alot of old house gas furnace boilers used a preheated room and therefore was using preheated air before the boilers

 

[waddycall]

You might want to think about changing that oil hose too. Looks like it’s gravity fed. If that splits your tank contents will end up on the floor. It does happen. The braided type should generally be changed every year. You can get longer life hose types.

 

[sako243]

I think keeping old stuff that’s solid in use is the way to go. I’ve serviced, repaired and condemned a lot of boilers of this type.

That is our inclination - particularly as there's two of them... Our house used to be an old carehome so there's two pumps and two boilers in the system. We've recently overhauled a fair bit of the plumbing due to a leak in a small pipe (well ~1-1/2" OD), prior to that the pump was on it's last legs and the plumber found that the "slip" joints were just bodged in previously so made the call just to rebuild everything in that manifold and do it properly so we've got decent 1/4 turn valves (they weren't cheap when you're measuring diameter in multiples of inches).

My intention had been to refurbish the left hand boiler which apparently didn't work whilst using the right hand one. Guess what happened...

It’s a good idea to check if it’s leaking flue gas between the sections. The seals harden up over time, break down and get blown out. They can get so bad that you can see flames in the combustion chamber through the sides of the boiler. When they leak they shouldnt really be used due to the risk from flue gasses entering the property (your risk, your shout). The combustion chamber is under pressure as there is a high ish pressure drop in the flue ways. It won’t just pull air in like a wood burner.

I did a quick patch previously but the plumber after sorting the other bits (and replacing the hot water tank) noticed a bit of soot escaping so notified me (boiler hadn't been on for ages over the summer). I then made the call and took off the panels and have picked out all the old fire cement and re-sealed everything. I turned off the lights in the cellar and put my big Milwaukee floodlight inside and peered around all the joints carefully and it looks like I've got everything which is surprising because the sods who installed it put both boilers quite close together (thankfully stood off the ground a bit) so I was working more or less by touch with arms underneath or over the top of the boiler.

I also stripped down the front plate and have cut a new piece of boiler glass and cut some new gaskets to surround that. I've ordered some new foil-backed ceramic (I think it was, would have to double check but >1000°C rating) insulation to replace the crispy bit that's falling apart on the inside of the burner mounting plate. Equally remaking the gasket to mount the burner to the plate.

Don’t down rate it - the flue may get too cold and condense causing corrosion and potentially stalling the flow.
I was just trying to work out the nozzle size you need in my EOGB app but it’s no longer supported. There might be a new one you can download. Just look for an oil nozzle sizing app and if you can get one from EOGB it’ll be spot on.

I've been into Wolesley today because they've been good in the past but the guy said - I shouldn't say this but go down the road to City Plumbing, ask for Brian and he'll hopefully be able to sort you out. Neither had a big enough nozzle in-stock but some replacements have been ordered for tomorrow from City Plumbing. The manual I found has a chart but to work through things reliably (with a bit of helpful explanation from the City Plumbing chap) I'll need to measure the pressure on the pump and check that at least.

You might want to think about changing that oil hose too. Looks like it’s gravity fed. If that splits your tank contents will end up on the floor. It does happen. The braided type should generally be changed every year. You can get longer life hose types.

You are correct and on my list of things to do is turn off the oil and check the filters etc., and probably replace and whilst it's "disconnected" I'll do that as well to. We can deal with the cold easily enough but the house is beginning to feel a little damp now so would be good to get things going again.

It's just been slightly mad having a short notice trip to London to empty a house there, then moving the horse to the in-laws for the winter and now I've just got the 6x6 engine back from the machine shop so it's utter chaos. I could do with making this someone else's problem but so far everyone's been extremely helpful by not being interested.

After skimming through that manual and chatting with the City Plumbing guy I feel quite a bit more confident but hey I'm meant to be an electronics engineer not plumber / boiler installer but so far more progress is being made if I do it myself rather than spent hours on the phone chasing people - it's frustrating to say the least.

 

[sako243]

Oh and working through this thing

Nozzle Calculator Plugin - EOGB - Energy Products

www.eogb.co.uk

It looks like either the pressure wants to be much higher than 10 bar or almost a 2mm nozzle to get 62kW...

 

[waddycall]

Oh and working through this thing

Nozzle Calculator Plugin - EOGB - Energy Products

www.eogb.co.uk

It looks like either the pressure wants to be much higher than 10 bar or almost a 2mm nozzle to get 62kW...

If you’re on kerosene you’d don’t want to go over 10bar as it can damage pumps. I’m getting a bit rusty on this stuff (stopped doing this 5 years ago) but it might come back