Butters AMT 241 - Bin or Fix?

[Hutcho]

Now put the leads on the dc side and see what you get -

 

[QuattroBro]

Now put the leads on the dc side and see what you get -

OK, I'll let you know what I find. Do the same procedure I guess?

 

[QuattroBro]

So, with the terminals on the other side of the rectifier measuring DC I get,

P1 - 35v maximum spike/fluctuation down to about 14V
P2 - 64V down to 15V
P3 - 17.8V pretty steady
P4 - 20V pretty steady
P5 - 80V > 23V steady
P6 - 26V steady.

I had no idea what to expect really apart from the arcing being more vicious as the voltage went up.

 

[Hutcho]

Hmmm - should be working , voltages a tad low but not to bad
If it’s still like string then need to be looking at bad connection somewhere

 

[QuattroBro]

Hmmm - should be working , voltages a tad low but not to bad
If it’s still like string then need to be looking at bad connection somewhere

Just goes pop-pop-pop! (Not a porous crackle but a pop).
Might it be something stupid? (Apart from me?) Maybe, I just don't know what else to try. I can find no loose wires internally, I was hoping to find something obvious.
I tightened up the brass connections around the Euro(?) torch connector a few days ago also made no difference.

 

[badabec]

Try a new reel of wire?

 

[QuattroBro]

Try a new reel of wire?

Yeah, tried that, no difference. It did occur to me it could be dirty wire but no.

 

[RonMig]

I'm not I just want to get on with the car!

Many here would buy a new/cheap/disposable, superlight inverter mig & crack on with the job, then come back to this one to fix at leisure...

Then you'd have a nice portable backup mig once the butters lands the right side up...

 

[arther dailey]

presume you are getting gas at nozzle ??

 

[QuattroBro]

Many here would buy a new/cheap/disposable, superlight inverter mig & crack on with the job, then come back to this one to fix at leisure...

Then you'd have a nice portable backup mig once the butters lands the right side up...

Yeah, I think I light have to, bloomin thing. I'll try another earth cable tomorrow and see if that makes any difference. It's almost like the wire pushes the gun back due not being earthed properly a few seconds later it's fine again!

presume you are getting gas at nozzle ??

Yes, the bottle ran out a few days ago and I thought, oh it was that after all! It wasn't.

 

[eddie49]

Those high open-circuit DC voltages - 35v, 64v, and 80v - in switch positions 1, 2, and 5 are strange.
Using the Diode Test range on your meter you could check the bridge rectifier by following @Seadog 's test procedure in Post #31 of this thread:

S

Thread 'Testing diodes'

Jul 21, 2017

Can anyone explain how to test diodes as I think I may be having some problems with my machine

It's a cebora panther 180

I have a multimeter

• swedge
• Replies: 50
• forum: Cebora & Snap-on

That should be done with power off and one of the thick AC secondary wires from the main transformer to the rectifier disconnected.

 

[arther dailey]

I had to put new diodes in one of these a few years back , changed all four, worked a treat afer , all though only one was duff at the time.be carefull with the insulators when reassembling , some what fragile

 

[QuattroBro]

Those high open-circuit DC voltages - 35v, 64v, and 80v - in switch positions 1, 2, and 5 are strange.

Yeah, only happened on initial start or a flashed up on the meter intermittently. I had a quick look through that guide, I shall try, if I can get my head around that.

I had to put new diodes in one of these a few years back , changed all four, worked a treat afer , all though only one was duff at the time.be carefull with the insulators when reassembling , some what fragile

I tried to replace diodes in one a few years back and it still never worked after doing it so I'll replace the whole thing if necessary.

Simple stuff I can usually fix, more technical stuff? No chance. Thanks for your help though.

 

[Nix2]

Those high open-circuit DC voltages - 35v, 64v, and 80v - in switch positions 1, 2, and 5 are strange.

The multimeter does not give reliable results with such a measurement (it is a voltage with strong ripples), it would be necessary to load the outputs of the MIG meter with a light bulb (classic, not LED), e.g. 230V/100W, and then the results would be closer to the truth.

 

[QuattroBro]

The multimeter does not give reliable results with such a measurement (it is a voltage with strong ripples), it would be necessary to load the outputs of the MIG meter with a light bulb (classic, not LED), e.g. 230V/100W, and then the results would be closer to the truth.

I've started suspecting the gas solenoid is sticking and "getting lazy" not as snappy open close as I remember. A mate has a spare so I'll try that, I had dismissed it being a gas issue a few days ago but maybe I'm wrong. I'll fit and go from there. If still no joy Les from Yorweld (I think it was) has offered to test the rectifier for me.

I took the opportunity to look over the motor and feed yesterday. I thought I'd killed something on reassembly but it still works. Two of the internal bearings were a little sticky but once I'd worked them a bit the move freely now. The wire feed should be a little smoother, it wasn't bad but I'd say it's better than it was. I hope I get get some more life out of it yet!

 

[snotters64]

You said you couldn't stop the wire with a glove on ,you should be able too stop it ,try slackening the drive roller adjustment until you can stop it then tighten a half turn .

 

[QuattroBro]

You said you couldn't stop the wire with a glove on ,you should be able too stop it ,try slackening the drive roller adjustment until you can stop it then tighten a half turn .

Ta for that. I'll try later later on. I fitted the new gas solenoid with no change, I was hoping it might have made some difference at least!
I maybe picking up another used machine this next week so if that behaves itself I can send the bridge rectifier away to see if there's any issue with it.

I went back to .8 wire after trying a fresh roll of .6 in the off chance the used reel of .8 had issues with dirt. I can't get on with .6

 

[QuattroBro]

I collect a used MIG tomorrow, used my Butters tonight and it did behave itself. It must have heard about a possible replacement!
Here's a question for you all though,

"Would running .8mm wire through a red 1.0mm liner cause any possible problems?"

I shall have to see how I get on with the used one but at least I should be able to get on with stuff by having a 2nd machine.

 

[Wedg1e]

I collect a used MIG tomorrow, used my Butters tonight and it did behave itself. It must have heard about a possible replacement!
Here's a question for you all though,

"Would running .8mm wire through a red 1.0mm liner cause any possible problems?"

I shall have to see how I get on with the used one but at least I should be able to get on with stuff by having a 2nd machine.

One might think that the smaller wire would try to kink and bunch up in the larger liner, but as you previously said you couldn't stop it feeding by hand that would suggest it isn't being restricted.

I'd have one eye on an intermittent contact, probably in the contactor - it might be closing the contacts and allowing sufficient current to flow in the primary that produces the voltages you see in the secondary, yet under actual welding load the contacts have sufficient resistance that the transformer can't pull enough current and the secondary voltage falls off... leading to the spitting and spluttering. Every once in a while the contacts might close on a 'clean' patch and it starts working OK.
Might not be that, of course, but I have seen it happen. At work I maintain mag particle inspection powerpacks and they have pretty much exactly the same internals as a MIG set minus the wire feed (but output up to 6000A ).

 

[QuattroBro]

One might think that the smaller wire would try to kink and bunch up in the larger liner, but as you previously said you couldn't stop it feeding by hand that would suggest it isn't being restricted.

I'd have one eye on an intermittent contact, probably in the contactor - it might be closing the contacts and allowing sufficient current to flow in the primary that produces the voltages you see in the secondary, yet under actual welding load the contacts have sufficient resistance that the transformer can't pull enough current and the secondary voltage falls off... leading to the spitting and spluttering. Every once in a while the contacts might close on a 'clean' patch and it starts working OK.
Might not be that, of course, but I have seen it happen. At work I maintain mag particle inspection powerpacks and they have pretty much exactly the same internals as a MIG set minus the wire feed (but output up to 6000A ).

Hi, interesting. You mean this "block", right? I can't find a higher resolution pic of it at the moment. Would it be worth cleaning in IPA or just replacing? If a transformer for example surely it would work or "not work" and nothing inbetween, would it? I did check those connectors were tight but for the contacts themselves, I have no idea. Ta!