Another boiler

[mark roberts]

Daughter inherited grannies house recently. Heating is knackered. It has a leak on a brass valve bit. Repair man says its not cost effective to repair. Its an ideal logic of 2012 vintage. It was installed during one of those campaigns headed by johnny ball that ripped off old people. The previous heating was the old back boiler type installed by council in 1984. Anyway it still has its original radiators and microbore piping.
Daughter has no money so I'm paying. What can I do myself to reduce costs. I suspect its pointless trying to keep the rads and pipes, nothing has been serviced or flushed ever. Can I just rip out the old microbore and put plastic or could the layout be different considering this layout was for an old system.

 

[hunter27]

In my opinion plastic (barrier pipe) is no substitute for copper, if the radiators are staying in roughly in the same places and the microbore is 10mm stick with the copper, microbore usually only gets damaged at the radiator valve olives and the pipe can easily be cut short and extended with a new bit connecting to the radiator. Flush the pipework out with mains water pressure, not just a fill and drain and get a new boiler fitted. Radiators are best removed and flushed with an hose pipe in the garden, much better than a power flush but messier and more time consuming.

 

[Jaeger_S2k]

You can do everything, except connect the gas, final connection.
I've never had a problem with barrier pipe, but if you're doing a refurb, decorating etc.
Microbore is good at blocking, so an old install would probably be worth removing, or certainly flushing. Run a cleaner through the system, in operational mode to help dissolve the muck, then flush as @hunter27 has said.
Consider bringing the barrier up the back of the skirting, and out the wall in the middle of the rad.
Then gentle bent towards each end of the rad. 2 street elbows and you don't have any joints above the floor, and you don't have visual pipes.
Make the new height of the rad. High enough for a vacuum cleaner to get under and it'll never hit the pipes.
It's the only issue that barrier had, and old school like me, never exposed barrier, was it could shatter if struck. Hence, the height, and it's all visually clean.
When I say, final connection. That's the final time you connect the gas to the boiler, you can test and 'run it in' while waiting for the 'Gas' man to sign it off. I've never understood any reluctance to gas men signing off a boiler install. It's not like electricary, it's either no leaking or it, yes leaking, but you can test that yourself before blowing up the house.

 

[mechman]

I kept with the copper pipe when mine was done as I was told that the plastic pipe wasn't rodent proof.
Norm.

 

[Jaeger_S2k]

I kept with the copper pipe when mine was done as I was told that the plastic pipe wasn't rodent proof.
Norm.

A rodent problem, isn't a plumbing problem.
Did they recommend you encased all your electricary cable, just in case?

 

[mechman]

I was told the rodent problem isn't one until it is.

 

[dobbslc]

If it's microbore it's probably a newer flow and return system but if it's a single pipe system it might it be worth replacing it all.
Pull up the floor by a radiator and see how many pipes pass it, if it's one pipe with both radiator pipes going to it it's a single pipe system.
Plastic pipes under a floor? no thanks.
I was paranoid about mice eating it and causing an unseen flood in my house so I used Kuterlon plastic coated copper pipe in 25 meter lengths.



There's no joints under the floor anywhere and unless there's a very hungry rat down there should be rodent proof.
I used manifolds on both sides of the hallway to terminate the pipes, it's proved to work very well so far.

 

[mark roberts]

In my opinion plastic (barrier pipe) is no substitute for copper, if the radiators are staying in roughly in the same places and the microbore is 10mm stick with the copper, microbore usually only gets damaged at the radiator valve olives and the pipe can easily be cut short and extended with a new bit connecting to the radiator. Flush the pipework out with mains water pressure, not just a fill and drain and get a new boiler fitted. Radiators are best removed and flushed with an hose pipe in the garden, much better than a power flush but messier and more time consuming.

I've found 3 rads with holes in them. considering they are 41years old I'm not surprised. I've just finished decorating/carpeting the whole place so if I can keep the microbore and just fit rads/boiler it would save work. I was hoping to get a few more years out of the combi. It was only repaired last year which cost £500

 

[gaz1]

Daughter inherited grannies house recently. Heating is knackered. It has a leak on a brass valve bit. Repair man says its not cost effective to repair. Its an ideal logic of 2012 vintage. It was installed during one of those campaigns headed by johnny ball that ripped off old people. The previous heating was the old back boiler type installed by council in 1984. Anyway it still has its original radiators and microbore piping.
Daughter has no money so I'm paying. What can I do myself to reduce costs. I suspect its pointless trying to keep the rads and pipes, nothing has been serviced or flushed ever. Can I just rip out the old microbore and put plastic or could the layout be different considering this layout was for an old system.

for start off what is leaking as that brass bit means nothing to many of us as theres many brass bits on boilers

whilst yours is 2012 ideal logic boiler vintage mine is a 2000 vailiant

as goes for not cost effective repair who did you call out ?

 

[gaz1]

I've found 3 rads with holes in them. considering they are 41years old I'm not surprised. I've just finished decorating/carpeting the whole place so if I can keep the microbore and just fit rads/boiler it would save work. I was hoping to get a few more years out of the combi. It was only repaired last year which cost £500

that microbore is worth taking out if radiators have gone holey 15mm lasts better but will fill up with grit and grime if not cared for

you will have 22mm in the house so a change from the microbore manifold to 15mm copper can be done

 

[knighty]

is there a header tank in the loft or is it a pressurised system?

I'd guess there's a header tank in the loft... there's been a small leak somewhere, even just a drip... which means the header tank has been adding water to top the system up all the time - the fresh oxygenated water added to the system is what causes corrosion.

as above, do you have a photo of the leak at the boiler end?

 

[Nomad]

I've found 3 rads with holes in them. considering they are 41years old I'm not surprised...

An easy fix is to buy new rads - make sure the *width* is the same as the one you remove so no need to alter pipework. Expect older to be imperial not metric.
Now is also a good time to fit twin panel or taller rads into any rooms that need extra heat.
Eg twin panel rad

Remove every rad, take it into the garden and flush / reverse flush / half fill then shuggle until water is clear.
Replace any that are rusty or scruffy (it's not worth the effort to repaint when new are so cheap)
I fitted new in the lounge & hall just to smarten the house.

Fit TRVs when you have the rads off.

Tip1 buy a led thermometer and go around any cold rooms - I found a dormer wall had no insulation, room was a lot warmer with insulation.

Tip2 flush the system and fit a magnetic filter to catch the crud. Name escapes me but Magnafux'ish is close.

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[Seadog]

An easy fix is to buy new rads - make sure the *width* is the same as the one you remove so no need to alter pipework. Expect older to be imperial not metric.

The chances of this are nil. At least that's my experience of changing rads.

 

[badabec]

I would also split upstairs and downstairs into separate systems with their own thermostats. I finally did this at home. Downstairs is now subtropical (SWMBO) and upstairs is cooler.
My oil consumption has dramatically dropped since the change.

 

[dave h 2]

I've found 3 rads with holes in them. considering they are 41years old I'm not surprised. I've just finished decorating/carpeting the whole place so if I can keep the microbore and just fit rads/boiler it would save work. I was hoping to get a few more years out of the combi. It was only repaired last year which cost £500

So this is one of those special backwards jobs where you leave the filthiest one till last.
The black rust in the rads will stain the new carpet.
Run the heating, any rads cold at the bottom are full of rust.
What Nomad says about dormers also applies to 1930s bay windows.

 

[Mark 5]

Daughter inherited grannies house recently. Heating is knackered. It has a leak on a brass valve bit. Repair man says its not cost effective to repair. Its an ideal logic of 2012 vintage. It was installed during one of those campaigns headed by johnny ball that ripped off old people. The previous heating was the old back boiler type installed by council in 1984. Anyway it still has its original radiators and microbore piping.
Daughter has no money so I'm paying. What can I do myself to reduce costs. I suspect its pointless trying to keep the rads and pipes, nothing has been serviced or flushed ever. Can I just rip out the old microbore and put plastic or could the layout be different considering this layout was for an old system.

My condolences.

A reality check, there is very little you can do that will reduce the costs of the installation of a CH system unless you are installing most of it yourself.

Bu imo the first consideration for you both is what in the immediate future, (the next year), for the property? If the thinking is to sell, don't bother upgrading, leave it to any new owner to undertake.

If the intention is to keep.

Removing as much of the old CH system won't reduce costs of installation of a new one, it very rarely does, it does however allow you to control it's removal and how.

An empty room prior to decorating is better than a cluttered one and goes some way towards the decorators making a better job of it.

Hopefully, the same logic applies to CH installers.

As part of any estimates you get and in writing should include the removal and disposal of any remnants of the previous CH system, everything.

I'm old school and prefer copper but barrier certainly has its place, with a combi make sure 15mm copper to your water outlets, 22mm to your rads, with 15mm tails, get shot of all microbore.

Make sure your side of the gas meter is in 22mm to the boiler.

There may be money to be saved buying your own used rads', if you know what your buying and their condition, otherwise let your installer supply as any costs you can save otherwise are not worthwhile.

All installers have their favourite brand of boilers/combies, ignore, in fact be wary of installers, their whistles and disaster stories on other brands, having said that, there is no point in choosing and have installed a brand of combi if there are no fitters in your area for your choice of combi/boiler who can service it.

Ignore all long term warranty sales spiel.

I rate WB and Vaillant as both are pretty much bullet proof, if your feeling adventuress and budget constraints consider a Glow-worm or Ariston.

IMO the best thing you can do to reduce costs on a new CH installation is to max out an interest free Credit card.

As for Jonny Ball, Ideal and Baxi, it wasn't him that ripped off pensioners, it was the way the heat home grants were administered at the time and the cowboy installers that fitted them, vandals most of them but Baxi especially, they were poor units, as a brand they have fortunately moved on.

And in fairness many of us remember with mundane familiarity and eyes rolling the old Baxi 80 &105e, they at least were serviable and chugged on.

 

[mark roberts]

for start off what is leaking as that brass bit means nothing to many of us as theres many brass bits on boilers

whilst yours is 2012 ideal logic boiler vintage mine is a 2000 vailiant

as goes for not cost effective repair who did you call out ?

A local heating guy said not worth it and I should get a worcester. I tried repairing the hole by grinding back and smothering in liquid metal schmoo.

Header tank not used since combi installed.

So this is one of those special backwards jobs where you leave the filthiest one till last.
The black rust in the rads will stain the new carpet.
Run the heating, any rads cold at the bottom are full of rust.
What Nomad says about dormers also applies to 1930s bay windows.

Yes totally one of those jobs both grandparents were heavy smokers and the place hadnt been decorated since I did it a decade ago.

The house adjoins our house so daughter will be keeping it. I agree johnny ball didn't rip off the old dears and yes it totally was people on commision not telling people the real costs. £6k to fit a combi is just day light robbery.

 

[gaz1]

id say this one

Pardon our interruption...

its up to you if you buy it vs new boiler and the plumbers commision all because they dont want to find the part or the part isnt stocked with them

there is youtube videos on how to fit them as well

but in all honesty the boiler hasnt done too bad for a 2012 model with poor maintenance and rusted radiators the cost of 500 wasnt to bad for it but remember thats also the plumbers test and repair bill as well

you cant add the cost of the rads to the boiler price as they are seperate entitys

 

[addjunkie]

I would also split upstairs and downstairs into separate systems with their own thermostats. I finally did this at home. Downstairs is now subtropical (SWMBO) and upstairs is cooler.
My oil consumption has dramatically dropped since the change.

If its mircobore there is a fair chance of their being a manifold upstairs and down. First thing do if figure out exactly what you have. Replacing radiators is easy enough but messy when the black metal particles drip on the carps as the system is never fully drained.

Boiler Id just pay a man…..easier than doing bits your self, suspect there wouldn't be much price difference anyway.

 

[RichardM]

Our boiler was fitted 2002, 8mm micro bore system, gets flushed and descaled occasionally. Still going strong. As above yes there is a manifold.