No more coal power stations

[GRW]

When net zero calcs are done, the footprint of making and delivering all the goods we buy and import from around the world needs to be considered. Our footprint would look a lot different when non-domestic consumption is included.

When my dog drops an egg in my neighbours field, it's still my dog's carp!

Quite so. Yet we see no "initiatives" to reduce or restrict imported goods shipped in from the other side of the globe, and instead to encourage production of goods locally.
The closing of Port Talbot does not reduce the demand for steel, but it does make us more dependent upon steel from a lot further away.
This can only be counter-productive to the stated objective of reducing global emissions (which again has to steer opinion towards the conclusion that the stated objective is nothing more than a convenient veneer to cover over the real objective - because surely things can only be quite this inept & ineffective by design).
That is a logical and not a political conclusion.

 

[Morrisman]

Quite so. Yet we see no "initiatives" to reduce or restrict imported goods shipped in from the other side of the globe, and instead to encourage production of goods locally.
The closing of Port Talbot does not reduce the demand for steel, but it does make us more dependent upon steel from a lot further away.
This can only be counter-productive to the stated objective of reducing global emissions (which again has to steer opinion towards the conclusion that the stated objective is nothing more than a convenient veneer to cover over the real objective - because surely things can only be quite this inept & ineffective by design).
That is a logical and not a political conclusion.

So we shut down the dirty old steel plant, and the dirty old coal power station, so now we’re clean and green, yet we have to ship in the steel we once made, and also ship in 7,000,000 tons of wood pellets annually to feed the clean green ‘renewable’ fuel source for Drax power station.

They really do think we’re a bunch of gullible idiots…

 

[Morrisman]

When net zero calcs are done, the footprint of making and delivering all the goods we buy and import from around the world needs to be considered. Our footprint would look a lot different when non-domestic consumption is included.

When my dog drops an egg in my neighbours field, it's still my dog's carp!

When I lived in the Philippines there was a large hue and cry in the newspapers one day when the president decided to reject and return a dozen 40’ containers that had been shipped from the U.K., for disposal….. full of waste ‘recycling’ plastic…. they were just a few of many that are sent to help U.K. stay green and clean. You can guess where the contents were usually disposed to….

 

[julianthegypsy]

When I lived in the Philippines there was a large hue and cry in the newspapers one day when the president decided to reject and return a dozen 40’ containers that had been shipped from the U.K., for disposal….. full of waste ‘recycling’ plastic…. they were just a few of many that are sent to help U.K. stay green and clean. You can guess where the contents were usually disposed to….

View attachment 467323

I've seen a documentary about plastic waste in Indonesia. Entire villages drowned in plastic mountains. Of course the poor villagers got nothing and any complaints were stamped on by as the companies involved had bribed everyone who needed bribing, which cost pennies in terms of the profits they were making. Truly shocking.
As an aside, Indonesia generates a lot of plastic waste themselves as everything that used to be wrapped in a banana leaf or greaseproof waxed paper is not plastic. It was always just thrown into the sea or the compost heap and still is. The difference is that it doesn't rot away....

 

[pressbrake1]

This is the elephant in the room, that the UK and other Western Nations like to sweep under the carpet.
Doing "our bit" to reduce global emissions & the whole Nut Zero business (that's business with a capital B if we face the harsh truths) is utterly pointless (were the stated objective to be the actual & honest objective that is) - unless EVERY Nation EVERYWHERE did so simultaneously and to the same degree, at the same relative pace and percentage.
Which is NOT the case. Here in Wales we are being forced into expensive "change" - when our total contribution to Emissions as a Nation - is reckoned at 0.04% (I might even have forgotten to move the decimal point to the left one step - but the whole UK is reputedly less than 1%).
Even if we achieved Nut Zero - without China, India, USA, Asia etc .... our efforts would have such a small impact it'd be effectively immeasurable.
Yet - the initiatives and nonsense hyperbole surrounding Nut Zero - continue and increase the burden on the ordinary person.

The inevitable and only logical conclusion - is that the whole UK drive to Nut Zero - is for goals and outcomes that have in reality nothing whatsoever to do with "saving the planet" and in creating a safer, cleaner, sustainable and "better" future for our descendents - quite the opposite.

(Note to @Wozzaaah - because practically ANY discussion CAN be interpreted as "Political" as its inextricably linked to just about everything including the weather - means that some common sense has to be applied, as well as some "latitude". This post of mine makes no political reference to any UK or indeed international political nor cultural bodies or organisations whatsoever. It is virtually impossible to say anything about anything, without it being possible for someone to draw "political" connotations. Personally I only see the need for light-handed moderation, when individuals become combative and rude. Otherwise people will barely be able to say anything at all, which means you might as well close up shop)

The pursuit of net zero by outsourcing everything from manufacturing to call centres to countries that burn coal for power and polute with no care is creating more trouble but with gesture policies this doesn’t matter

 

[Morrisman]

I've seen a documentary about plastic waste in Indonesia. Entire villages drowned in plastic mountains. Of course the poor villagers got nothing and any complaints were stamped on by as the companies involved had bribed everyone who needed bribing, which cost pennies in terms of the profits they were making. Truly shocking.
As an aside, Indonesia generates a lot of plastic waste themselves as everything that used to be wrapped in a banana leaf or greaseproof waxed paper is not plastic. It was always just thrown into the sea or the compost heap and still is. The difference is that it doesn't rot away....

The Pasig river in Manila, you can all but walk on it, so dense with plastic it is.

Filipinos in general see drains, sewers, rivers, as general purpose garbage disposal systems. The annual monsoon washes everything away to the sea, where it disappears……



https://youtu.be/YZdl7BgIVsY?si=8w4Y-p90PDBEdYQN

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

They really do think we’re a bunch of gullible idiots…

This is where I think you're giving "Them" far too much credit.

Because of serving on some industry and professional bodies, I get to get up close and personal with policy makers and the civil servants that support them.

"They" [the policy makers] are broadly speaking the idiots.

It's obvious that there's a critical mass of people leading us today who:

- don't have any understanding of the area they're responsible for,

- don't listen to advice from the technical experts they have on staff unless it meets their preconceptions or supports an existing direction of travel,

- are broadly resistant to actually having, or adequately rewarding technical expertise within the civil service,

- don't think through the long term consequences of their decisions,

- won't even give their civil servants the latitude or resources to actually work out the wider impact of their decisions,

- are driven by trying to do what will appear to be "the right thing" in a 20 second media soundbite,

Being led by people whose self interest means they can only ever consider a 2-4 year timescale when trying to solve a problem 190 years in the making (which will realistically take just as long to unwind), was always inevitably going to result in a contradictory ****-show...

Both nationally and internationally, Industry and lots of "Civil Society" bodies are putting a lot of free work into trying to help governments to produce a truly sustainable* way forward.

Civil servants the world over are very appreciative and supportive of this.

Getting their [the civil servants'] masters to listen is like trying to nail a jelly to the wall.



* There's also an issue with the word "sustainability" being used to talk about very narrow environmental-focused vision, which I would put at the feet of a handful of well meaning but blinkered NGO's and activists.

If you're not already familiar with it, look at the sustainability triangle:

Then whenever you hear that word in the media, ask yourself if the policy being discussed is really ticking all three boxes of "Equitable, Viable, & Bearable", very few do.

 

[roofman]

No it is the truth....

Problem with change is: If you question it - the people who are selling you change - earning out of it - just call you a "luddite"

Never a problem with me being called anything, well i do draw the line being called a Southerner Personally speaking i question anything and everything that comes from the ruling, its a trait that comes with age just like ear and nose hairs.

 

[Martin Hocking]

Never a problem with me being called anything, well i do draw the line being called a Southerner Personally speaking i question anything and everything that comes from the ruling, its a trait that comes with age just like ear and nose hairs.

Tell me about it it’s like a forest in there! I don’t think I’m even that old!

 

[addjunkie]

So we shut down the dirty old steel plant, and the dirty old coal power station, so now we’re clean and green, yet we have to ship in the steel we once made, and also ship in 7,000,000 tons of wood pellets annually to feed the clean green ‘renewable’ fuel source for Drax power station.

They really do think we’re a bunch of gullible idiots…

Yes but we are re wilding farm land that could be planted with trees, that over the next cycle ( 30 to40 years) could generate about a billion to the economy….

Its not just Drax wood is shipped into either! There are regular timber shipments from Estonia etc for the smaller ones labelled biomass being paid for by HM Government schemes

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Yes but we are re wilding farm land that could be planted with trees, that over the next cycle ( 30 to40 years) could generate about a billion to the economy….

Rewilding large amounts of prime arable land makes very little sense, especially as it's possible to achieve similar biodiversity net gain if farmers engage in good long-term land management practices, and embrace biological control control.

Some of the upland schemes make more sense, given the low productivity and disproportionate biodiversity loss impact of upland farming...

But that becomes a sociocultural issue as you're destroying a way of life, and a lot of rural heritage if it's pushed too far, so...

In any case, as a western country it is once again our indirect impacts that cause the biggest biodiversity loss, in agrarian areas of middle income countries. So we should be looking to promoting sustainable land management and rewilding there first really.

Its not just Drax wood is shipped into either! There are regular timber shipments from Estonia etc for the smaller ones labelled biomass being paid for by HM Government schemes

That being said, the smaller ones are still significantly more efficient than Drax, being that most of them have been commissioned with closed loop Organic Rankine Cycle rather than traditional Steam with Open Circuit Cooling Towers.

There's probably a place for some biomass (especially if we implement Carbon Capture and Utilisation in the future) in the energy mix as a backup...

But, as much as I have a soft spot for the CEGB era large thermal power plants, they are well past their sell-by date from a technological perspective.

 

[jsf55]

I was over there today, it's a bit of an eerie silence compared too the normal whoosh, bang or general noise

 

[Erie Fred]

Never a problem with me being called anything, well i do draw the line being called a Southerner Personally speaking i question anything and everything that comes from the ruling, its a trait that comes with age just like ear and nose hairs.

Your an ugly mug as well, what with all those errant hair follicles .....