LH thread time sert.

[Cato]

I need a LH thread timesert type thread repair insert but they don't do them in M10 x 1.5 so I've been hunting for an alternative with now luck. Anyone know of a solid type insert alternative who do one?

I can't use the helicoil type for this job as it's regularly loosened and tightened as well as being subject to a fair amount of vibration in use. It's for the LH mirror mount on a BMW R75 the owner of which wants to keep the original mount.

 

[hotponyshoes]

Is there a budget on this?
Timesert do them but apparently it's £468+ vat for the kit.
That should mean that the inserts are available separately though...

How much space have you got?
Can you stick an m14/m16 timesert in there, threadlock a stud into it with the 10mmLH thread in that?

 

[Brad93]

I'd try Keensert from Clarendon,

and you don't need a special tap either with those.

You can try JP Aero at Hainault. They supply loads of specialty helicoils etc for local firms in aerospace.

 

[Cato]

Is there a budget on this?
Timesert do them but apparently it's £468+ vat for the kit.
That should mean that the inserts are available separately though...

How much space have you got?
Can you stick an m14/m16 timesert in there, threadlock a stud into it with the 10mmLH thread in that?

The bloke at Wurth said they didn't do them and I couldn't find them on the timesert site?

There isn't the wall thickness to go larger unfortunately.

I'd try Keensert from Clarendon,

and you don't need a special tap either with those.

You can try JP Aero at Hainault. They supply loads of specialty helicoils etc for local firms in aerospace.

I'll have a look at those, thanks.

 

[Brad93]

Another solution:

Solid keenserts.

You instal them then drill and tap for your wanted thread

Thread inserts thread repair Steel solid

MaterialCarbon steelChemical black finish F = Fitting ToolPart of the WDS 412 Metric Threaded Inserts for Thread Repair range

www.wdscomponents.com

Keenserts® Solid Inserts

Significantly increases load capability in weaker materials Special "kees" lock the Keensert into place, eliminating rotation Easy to install - no special taps required and no tangs to remove Defect threads can be renewed with same nominal diameter

www.hfsindustrial.com

 

[Pete.]

I need a LH thread timesert type thread repair insert but they don't do them in M10 x 1.5 so I've been hunting for an alternative with now luck. Anyone know of a solid type insert alternative who do one?

I can't use the helicoil type for this job as it's regularly loosened and tightened as well as being subject to a fair amount of vibration in use. It's for the LH mirror mount on a BMW R75 the owner of which wants to keep the original mount.

Stick a normal helicoil in with a normal bolt and threadlock the crap out of it.

 

[Agroshield]

There isn't the wall thickness to go larger unfortunately.

For a standard M10 x 1.5 RH Timesert, the OD thread is M11.8 x 1.5. Hence, if there is room for a Timesert, there is room for an M12 thread in the original part.

You could make your own LH Timesert with M10 x 1.5 LH thread and M12 x 1.5 LH thread. The challenge is clocking the internal and external threads so they align.

An M10 LH nut would be a good place to start. Buy an M10 LH bolt at the same time as the nut. Loctite the nut onto the bolt, leaving some of the bolt threads accessible. Turn the nut OD to 12mm. Line up your external screwcutting tool with the root of one of the threads on the bolt (this does the clocking part) and cut the external M12 x 1.5 LH thread. Tap the part on the bike M12 x 1.5 LH (tap is £12 Chinabay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314936625293; £30 UK sourced). M13 x 1.5 LH tap is also cheap (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124952312073) if the wall thickness allows it.

 

[Cato]

Stick a normal helicoil in with a normal bolt and threadlock the crap out of it.

There isn't a bolt and it has to be LH thread.

I can't use the helicoil type for this job as it's regularly loosened and tightened as well as being subject to a fair amount of vibration in use. It's for the LH mirror mount on a BMW R75 the owner of which wants to keep the original mount.

 

[Cato]

For a standard M10 x 1.5 RH Timesert, the OD thread is M11.8 x 1.5. Hence, if there is room for a Timesert, there is room for an M12 thread in the original part.

You could make your own LH Timesert with M10 x 1.5 LH thread and M12 x 1.5 LH thread. The challenge is clocking the internal and external threads so they align.

An M10 LH nut would be a good place to start. Buy an M10 LH bolt at the same time as the nut. Loctite the nut onto the bolt, leaving some of the bolt threads accessible. Turn the nut OD to 12mm. Line up your external screwcutting tool with the root of one of the threads on the bolt (this does the clocking part) and cut the external M12 x 1.5 LH thread. Tap the part on the bike M12 x 1.5 LH (tap is £12 Chinabay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314936625293; £30 UK sourced). M13 x 1.5 LH tap is also cheap (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124952312073) if the wall thickness allows it.

I see what you're getting at.

I don't think the job or the customer would stand the labour cost of making something up from scratch. Those Keenserts @Brad93 suggested look a likely candidate so I'll see about those as the first option.

 

[oldbikedavey]

I'd try Keensert from Clarendon,

and you don't need a special tap either with those.

You can try JP Aero at Hainault. They supply loads of specialty helicoils etc for local firms in aerospace.

I'll look them up, very handily local for me... Just did, and they are down by Roding Valley Station.
Might bumble past at some stage, and see what's what.

 

[bricol]

There isn't a bolt and it has to be LH thread.

I can't use the helicoil type for this job as it's regularly loosened and tightened as well as being subject to a fair amount of vibration in use. It's for the LH mirror mount on a BMW R75 the owner of which wants to keep the original mount.

Exactly what the helicoils we use in our machinery withstand all day, every day. If we bolt something together once, we don't bother - tap directly into the aluminium (our own tests prove that a 12.9 screw will snap before the threads pull out) - but for size change parts, being taken off, swapped, refitted, we specify and fit helicoils. Machines run up at speed, with a lot of moving components, shock loads, etc 24hr day.

Wouldn't necessarily discount them.

 

[Agroshield]

Those Keenserts Brad93 suggested look a likely candidate...

Just be aware with those that you would need a bigger OD thread insert than M12 coarse, or smaller pitch OD thread (e.g. M12 fine) to accommodate the M10 internal thread.

With the Timesert, the internal and external threads are clocked. Because of this, they can minimise the wall thickness. With a solid insert, you have to make sure there is enough wall thickness remaining between the largest part of the internal thread and the smallest part of the external thread.

For example, let us say you can live with 1mm wall thickness in your solid insert. That means the minimum tapping drill for the external thread would need to be 11mm, giving a minimum OD thread of M12 x 1.0.

That also raises another issue: is there any engineering benefit to having either a finer or coarser pitch on the external thread of the insert? Having differing thread pitches might help the insert not to unscrew from the parent (but the possible combination of LH & RH threads makes the issue more tricky). Worth (Würth?) thinking about though.

 

[Cato]

Exactly what the helicoils we use in our machinery withstand all day, every day. If we bolt something together once, we don't bother - tap directly into the aluminium (our own tests prove that a 12.9 screw will snap before the threads pull out) - but for size change parts, being taken off, swapped, refitted, we specify and fit helicoils. Machines run up at speed, with a lot of moving components, shock loads, etc 24hr day.

Wouldn't necessarily discount them.

The threaded part which screws into it is a mirror stem so it has a fair bit of leverage and he loosens the lock nut and folds the mirror back each time he parks it in the garage. The other issue with helicoil is that he's "been advised against them" by someone in the club. No doubt someone who hand drilled it out and gashed in the helicoil which then failed and the helicoil got the blame.

I'll be having a ring round to see if the sleeve type are available anywhere. If not his choices will be helicoil (which he doesn't want) or I can make up an insert which will cost more but it'll sort it out for him. I'm thinking that if I make an insert the easiest option would be to make up a blank to fill the hole, and make it a press fit as well as drilling through to cross pin it. Then that can be drilled and tapped. It'd be quicker and easier than making a threaded insert, but would have the same end result.

 

[Cato]

Just be aware with those that you would need a bigger OD thread insert than M12 coarse, or smaller pitch OD thread (e.g. M12 fine) to accommodate the M10 internal thread.

With the Timesert, the internal and external threads are clocked. Because of this, they can minimise the wall thickness. With a solid insert, you have to make sure there is enough wall thickness remaining between the largest part of the internal thread and the smallest part of the external thread.

For example, let us say you can live with 1mm wall thickness in your solid insert. That means the minimum tapping drill for the external thread would need to be 11mm, giving a minimum OD thread of M12 x 1.0.

That also raises another issue: is there any engineering benefit to having either a finer or coarser pitch on the external thread of the insert? Having differing thread pitches might help the insert not to unscrew from the parent (but the possible combination of LH & RH threads makes the issue more tricky). Worth (Würth?) thinking about though.

The insert has to take the original mirror stem, he's wedded to the idea of originality as it is such a nice condition unrestored bike. So he wants to keep the original mirror in use, and also if it needs replacing down the line replace it with an original part.

Ultimately it's all pointing towards his list of requirements for preservation equally a much higher bill. "You pays your money ...." etc.

 

[doubleboost]

A properly inserted Helicoil should be fine.
All the threads on Hewland race car gearboxes are helicoiled .
Stripped every race to change ratios .

 

[Brad93]

I've used a few Helicoils in aluminium, but the few i have used kept winding out. Again the bolt was in and out repeatedly.

I've used them in very highly stressed applications where they are still holding well.

I can understand where people are coming from on both sides of the fence.

One thing is for certain though. Nothing is as reliable as a Key Insert.

 

[Pete.]

In this situation I'd consider drilli2ng and reaming the hole, fit a slug of ally with anaerobic retainer drills an tap a new LH thread

 

[Shox Dr]

In this situation I'd consider drilli2ng and reaming the hole, fit a slug of ally with anaerobic retainer drills an tap a new LH thread

...and then sell him some Double Take Mirrors.

 

[Cato]

A properly inserted Helicoil should be fine.
All the threads on Hewland race car gearboxes are helicoiled .
Stripped every race to change ratios .

I've used a few Helicoils in aluminium, but the few i have used kept winding out. Again the bolt was in and out repeatedly.

I've used them in very highly stressed applications where they are still holding well.

I can understand where people are coming from on both sides of the fence.

One thing is for certain though. Nothing is as reliable as a Key Insert.

I have no issue with Helicoil, but I must confess I prefer the solid insert type from an installation point of view.

In this instance it's one of those awkward things where a customer is set against a particular method. So should an issue arise with in it future due to misuse it'll be one of those "that's why I didn't want to use ...". So I'll put the options to him tomorrow and see what he wants to do as ultimately it has to be his choice once he has the info and recommendations.

 

[RichardM]

What does the part which has stripped look like, is there access from the underside to allow for a stepped insert? Are any secondhand parts available? Could it be filled with weld and re-machined?
Edited as the eBay ones I have seen don't look to have enough metal there for an insert to go in.