Ceramic cartridge valves

[addjunkie]

Then the expanded graphite is pressed into products, cords are made for seals, and so on. It looks quite hard, not soft.

I removed the gaskets several times, they continue to work, but the oil pressure does not exceed 4 bar on my equipment.View attachment 434167

Some graphite gaskets are like sheet mesh impregnated with the graphite medium sheet stuff, or tangled mesh. Youll get away reusing them on low torque, low pressure stuff, but eventually they end up compressed too much. And then some start to degrade.

 

[Sergei Slovenija]

Some graphite gaskets are like sheet mesh impregnated with the graphite medium sheet stuff, or tangled mesh. Youll get away reusing them on low torque, low pressure stuff, but eventually they end up compressed too much. And then some start to degrade.

I don't overuse used ring seal. This ring is held inside and outside by flat stainless steel spirals from excessive compression. The spirals prevent the flange from deforming too much, although of course there is plastic deformation. The piping needed to be redone, and the new gaskets were a different size. I had to take a risk.

 

[Maker]

My company Focused Sun is in Las Cruces, NM, USA. We make “solar thermal” power plants. A small one is shown here

Here’s the problem. We have 4 different modes of operation for a system Each mode requires valves be changed to get the correct operation. There are 10 valves used to get the four modes.
The fluid we are valving is hot synthetic oil good for 300°C (575°F). The oil is clean and filtered. It is also at only 6 psig. We have already made encoder-based motors that can open and close the valves under computer control.
I am intrigued with ceramic cartridge valves that have low maintenance. Yeah, I know that they are designed for water valving at 50 psi to 100 psi.
Has anyone tried to use the cartridge valves for anything but water?
Shawn

What is the actual problem you're trying to solve? Are the valves you're currently using failing prematurely?

I'm curious about the motorised valves, are you using them to throttle the flow, or just as an on/off? If it's the latter, surely solenoid valves would be cheaper and easier.

 

[Shawn Buckley]

Interesting generator. How much does it cost for approximately 20 kW of generation? We have a lot of sun.

Sergie,
Our collectors need a "condensing turbine" to run a generator at the low steam temperatures (300C) coming from our solar collector array. Condensing turbines have been in vogue by utilities in the last decade or two since they can be added on to the smokestack of an existing power plant to better convert the stack waste heat. Called "combined cycle", they bring a utility efficiency from 35% to 45%. Since many utilities are going "combined", these turbines have seen high sales and many suppliers. They are available from China and probably India for very competitive pricing. For example, we size out a 400 kW|elec system on our website (www.focused-sun/hectare). The Chinese unit we show there costs about $100K USD; an American one the same size costs $400K.
Your 20 kW generator using a condensing turbine is less than $10K USD in China (https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...658.html?spm=a2700.details.0.0.67b03f04kd1FLb). The one shown is for a natural gas driven power source, but I found that after only 5 minutes of poking around Alibaba. Likely there are many condensing turbines for about the same price. A quick note about Alibaba. Some Yanks here say they are junk. I've been to China 40 times over 30 years and most of these industrial suppliers have good products, are cheap and mostly honest.
Our hectare system (100m x 100m array) captures 3 MW of heat. The solar heat that can be collected is proportional to the area or the area. By proportion, 400 kW|elec => 10,000 m2 or power/area is 0.04 kW|elec /m2. For 20kW|elec power you'll need 500 m2 of collector, an array about 25 m x 25 m. Note: these are just rules of thumb. We did these for a Saudi company that has a lot more sun than Europeans. What country are you in?
Shawn

 

[Sergei Slovenija]

What country are you in?
Shawn

It’s so small gov, it’s a 2-3-hour drive diagonally along the highway from border to border, many people confuse it with Slovakia.

I do not consider internal combustion engines for generating electricity. Even if the fuel is free.

 

[Shawn Buckley]

What is the actual problem you're trying to solve? Are the valves you're currently using failing prematurely?

I'm curious about the motorised valves, are you using them to throttle the flow, or just as an on/off? If it's the latter, surely solenoid valves would be cheaper and easier.

No, we have had no failures. The brass ball valves we are using now work fine -- even at 250C temperatures. First we want the valves to be inexpensive. There are a dozen of them on our main product (the Microgrid). If they were all the same and inexpensive we can make bulk purchases that give the lowest pricing. But other than cost, another factor is reliability. People buy solar to get low energy costs, but a system has to last 20 years to pay that potential return. Sure, there will be a maintenance program to identify bad components and replace them (plus lots of sensors and software to assure everything is working right even before maintenance). This isn't a death-defining decision. We have something that works acceptably now but is too expensive. We expect our purchased volumes to go up quickly and we are looking for a valve that's good for a volume product, not just protos and pilot.

On the motorized valves, most are simply ON-OFF, but a few (3) are variable valves where we must throttle the flow through the valves. It would be nice (but not a requirement) to use the same valve for both. Let me look into solenoid valves. I'd want to be sure the valves didn't require power during the ON or the OFF state -- but did need power to change its position.

 

[Shawn Buckley]

Where is the

It’s so small gov, it’s a 2-3-hour drive diagonally along the highway from border to border, many people confuse it with Slovakia.

I do not consider internal combustion engines for generating electricity. Even if the fuel is free.It’s so small gov, it’s a 2-3-hour drive diagonally along the highway from border to border, many people confuse it with Slovakia.

"It’s so small gov, it’s a 2-3-hour drive diagonally along the highway from border to border." I hear you, Sergie. When people ask where I'm from, I say, "I live at the end of a dirt road, on the outskirts of a small little-known city in a fly-over state."
Where is the "internal combustion engine"? You mean the kind that burns fossil fuels?

 

[Shawn Buckley]

I found it. Slovenia. It's part of former Yugoslavia.
If I go to the url for SolarGIS in Slovenia (https://solargis.com/maps-and-gis-data/download/slovenia), I can get the "Direct Normal Irradiation" (DNI) map. We use DNI because its "direct" sunlight. Other solar technologies like PV get ~15% more energy in humid climates than just the direct component. They can also use "indirect solar" that comes from the rest of the sky (not the sun). So be sure to use the DNI map.
I've shown it below. Most of Slovenia is yellow-colored which has about 3 kWhr/m2 each day. This is pretty low, about half what we get here in the fly-over state New Mexico (~6kWh/m2 each day).
If the DNI is half, then you will need twice as much collector area to get the same numbers I showed above. Instead of 500 m2 of collector area, you'll need 1000 m2. That's the price of your beautiful trees and forests compared to our cactus and pricks.

"It’s so small gov, it’s a 2-3-hour drive diagonally along the highway from border to border." I hear you, Sergie. When people ask where I'm from, I say, "I live at the end of a dirt road, on the outskirts of a small little-known city in a fly-over state."
Where is the "internal combustion engine"? You mean the kind that burns fossil fuels?

 

[Sergei Slovenija]

I found it. Slovenia. It's part of former Yugoslavia.
If I go to the url for SolarGIS in Slovenia (https://solargis.com/maps-and-gis-data/download/slovenia), I can get the "Direct Normal Irradiation" (DNI) map. We use DNI because its "direct" sunlight. Other solar technologies like PV get ~15% more energy in humid climates than just the direct component. They can also use "indirect solar" that comes from the rest of the sky (not the sun). So be sure to use the DNI map.
I've shown it below. Most of Slovenia is yellow-colored which has about 3 kWhr/m2 each day. This is pretty low, about half what we get here in the fly-over state New Mexico (~6kWh/m2 each day).
If the DNI is half, then you will need twice as much collector area to get the same numbers I showed above. Instead of 500 m2 of collector area, you'll need 1000 m2. That's the price of your beautiful trees and forests compared to our cactus and pricks.



View attachment 434674

Before the formation of Yugoslavia by the communists, there was a kingdom of Slovenes, Serbs and Croats, formed after World War 1, with the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Therefore, everything returned to normal.

Based on your link to Chinese manufacturers, I see an internal combustion engine running on natural gas. I didn't notice the steam turbine.

Personally, it’s too late for me to think about the return on investment of any option for generating electrical and thermal energy. But it makes sense if I live to retire (it won’t be great, to put it mildly) and my utility costs tend to zero, and I have enough money for everything else. Whatever happens next, let the children figure it out.

I want to buy a house in the wilderness with its own forest and have my own firewood. And yes, I will, damn it, burn them as much as necessary so as not to freeze in the winter. Photovoltaics and solar water heaters are a nice addition to firewood.

 

[Maker]

No, we have had no failures. The brass ball valves we are using now work fine -- even at 250C temperatures. First we want the valves to be inexpensive. There are a dozen of them on our main product (the Microgrid). If they were all the same and inexpensive we can make bulk purchases that give the lowest pricing. But other than cost, another factor is reliability. People buy solar to get low energy costs, but a system has to last 20 years to pay that potential return. Sure, there will be a maintenance program to identify bad components and replace them (plus lots of sensors and software to assure everything is working right even before maintenance). This isn't a death-defining decision. We have something that works acceptably now but is too expensive. We expect our purchased volumes to go up quickly and we are looking for a valve that's good for a volume product, not just protos and pilot.

On the motorized valves, most are simply ON-OFF, but a few (3) are variable valves where we must throttle the flow through the valves. It would be nice (but not a requirement) to use the same valve for both. Let me look into solenoid valves. I'd want to be sure the valves didn't require power during the ON or the OFF state -- but did need power to change its position.

I don't think you'll get 20 years out of a ceramic cartridge, there's no soft/conforming seal, just two pieces of ceramic lapped together, and after a few years of constant operation they wear and start to leak.

 

[Sergei Slovenija]

I don't think you'll get 20 years out of a ceramic cartridge, there's no soft/conforming seal, just two pieces of ceramic lapped together, and after a few years of constant operation they wear and start to leak.

I have experience using a Chinese ceramic cartridge; it has been used in the kitchen for 14 years. No problem. We bought a cheap faucet as a temporary solution for very little money. The crane turned out to be convenient and remained alive. And the fashionable “granite-like” Italian sink for washing dishes is a capricious thing that requires constant cleaning from stains. Never again!

 

[Shawn Buckley]

I don't think you'll get 20 years out of a ceramic cartridge, there's no soft/conforming seal, just two pieces of ceramic lapped together, and after a few years of constant operation they wear and start to leak.

That's true, usually a you want a hard surface that pushes against a softer one, like a shaft and its babbitt or shafts with carbon seals. But I think for those it is impurities (mostly metal particles in the fluid) that require the unequal hardness. When a hard particle gets in between the two, better the particle gets embedded into the soft stuff than the hard shaft.
For the two ceramic plates in the cartridge, I think it is that both ceramic surfaces are very hard that prevents them from wearing. Hey, it's got to be better than a rubber washer, right?
Does anyone else have any long-term experience with ceramic cartridges wearing out?

 

[Shawn Buckley]

Before the formation of Yugoslavia by the communists, there was a kingdom of Slovenes, Serbs and Croats, formed after World War 1, with the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Therefore, everything returned to normal.

Based on your link to Chinese manufacturers, I see an internal combustion engine running on natural gas. I didn't notice the steam turbine.

Personally, it’s too late for me to think about the return on investment of any option for generating electrical and thermal energy. But it makes sense if I live to retire (it won’t be great, to put it mildly) and my utility costs tend to zero, and I have enough money for everything else. Whatever happens next, let the children figure it out.

I want to buy a house in the wilderness with its own forest and have my own firewood. And yes, I will, damn it, burn them as much as necessary so as not to freeze in the winter. Photovoltaics and solar water heaters are a nice addition to firewood.

Sergei, my history of your region is a little skimpy. I do remember Tito when he was alive but little before then.
Sorry about the Alibaba post, they sometimes change them. See this url from our website (www.focused-sun.com/hectare) that shows the condensing turbine from our larger 400 kW|elec system. One for a 25 kW unit looks the same but is smaller. Many manufacturers make these because it is an easy decision for a power plant executive to add one to the plant's stack and get 10% more power from it.
I'm looking for such a solution too:. "I want to buy a house in the wilderness with its own forest and have my own firewood. And yes, I will, damn it, burn them as much as necessary so as not to freeze in the winter." Focused Sun's President, Rene Francis, lives west of Stockholm, Sweden. He has hooked PV solar up to his "super-insulated" house and has a heat pump working off the rock 100 m below. You've heard of "Midnight Sun". in winter they have no sun -- or at least only a few hours a day. It's not that cold, huh?

 

[Sergei Slovenija]

I was thinking about a large heat accumulator. I have access to paraffin from recycled cemetery memorial candles. Very cheap, especially with pieces of plastic from lamps. Would this be more interesting than concrete for hot water or not?

 

[Shawn Buckley]

Good idea. Wax is a "phase change" material that stores heat by changing phase from solid to liquid. It's much better at storing heat than the concrete we use, maybe 4 times better. It would be especially good for urban or suburban installations where its smaller volume would be welcomed. But another consideration is safety. While it's just hard wax when its put into that storage tank, it soon becomes hot liquid paraffin, a fire hazard if it ever caught fire.

I was thinking about a large heat accumulator. I have access to paraffin from recycled cemetery memorial candles. Very cheap, especially with pieces of plastic from lamps. Would this be more interesting than concrete for hot water or not?