Air source heat pump...

[Onoff]

I think I'm correct in saying that with ground source you have to factor in the periodic cost and hassle of changing the glycol in the loop?

Water source too I believe.

 

[Kayos]

I think I'm correct in saying that with ground source have to factor in the periodic cost and hassle of changing the glycol in the loop?

Yes, every 100 years or so

 

[JimmyS]

I'm thinking ground source with a thermal store at the min as I wonder how longer term we can keep adding load to the electricity network during daytime before companies have offer better incentives to use off peak electricity more. It's hard to know how it will pan out with increased adoption of PV and battery storage not to mention electric cars and the overall effect on the power network however.

Anyhow that's part of the reason why I'm thinking of going ground source as opposed to air source, when the time comes.

 

[addjunkie]

I'm thinking ground source with a thermal store at the min as I wonder how longer term we can keep adding load to the electricity network during daytime before companies have offer better incentives to use off peak electricity more. It's hard to know how it will pan out with increased adoption of PV and battery storage not to mention electric cars and the overall effect on the power network however.

Anyhow that's part of the reason why I'm thinking of going ground source as opposed to air source, when the time comes.

Before you decide to go ground source, check out how much juice you need to run it, some require 3phase

 

[JimmyS]

Before you decide to go ground source, check out how much juice you need to run it, some require 3phase

Ive got 3 phase, I got a 100A TPN supply in couple of years ago as incoming SPN service was in a stupid place and in my way.

 

[addjunkie]

Ive got 3 phase, I got a 100A TPN supply in couple of years ago as incoming SPN service was in a stupid place and in my way.

In that case go ground-source, heat store, with lots of solar and batteries. When theres no sun charge up in the cheap night tariffs.
As long as you have trench space…drilling is quite costly

 

[JimmyS]

In that case go ground-source, heat store, with lots of solar and batteries. When theres no sun charge up in the cheap night tariffs.
As long as you have trench space…drilling is quite costly

Yes drilling is not cheap. In Scotland there's only one company doing geothermal stuff. All the others are only interested in drilling wells for private water supplies as far as I can see.

 

[frank horton]

my mate in France installed 2 unit's in his well insulated barn conversion.....he's a veggy save the planet type of guy.....
ended up puttting a wood boiler to make the place warmer....
his remark was the biggest waste of money he ever and he took a loan out to install the system....

 

[JOEPRO]

...has anyone had one installed?

I filled out an online questionnaire with Greener Energy Group and was called back by their sales department the next day The Scottish Government is offering various grants and loans that would contribute what sounds like a reasonable amount... but that all depends upon the installation cost, obviously.

We bought the bungalow eleven years ago and had a new oil central heating system installed amongst other things; as a result Mrs TF seems quite against the idea as it is so relatively new. We live quite rurally, end of a small village with a sizeable garden and south facing too... haven't a clue whether that's a good thing or not! We also had PV panels installed and they've paid for themselves already.

I'm tempted to commit to a no-commitment survey and take it from there.

Just curious if anyone has any experience!

Is your current boiler condensing type? If not I would consider upgrading that and leave it.

I know alot of people with bad experiences of ASHPs. Ground source does work well but install is very expensive and need the land etc for it or they can sometimes use deep wells instead.

 

[Johnnybravo]

No doubt the resident greenie will crucify me for saying it, but just how many years will it take to (A) pay off the install and (B) you actually start saving money on your heating bills over if you hadn’t fitted one? Let’s leave the variables out, ie size of house, location, colur of toilet paper you use. Let’s set the playing field level. Average 3 bedroomed detached house , pretty well insulated and in the south east of England?

Reminds me of the Muppet who installed the smart meter who informed me of how many millions of pounds the spotlights in the kitchen were costing me. I said ok, let’s work this out quickly. Priced up the new led light fittings and led bulbs. Threw a lowball price in for an electrician to change the energy guzzling spotlights. Factored in the average lifespan on the led’s before they needed replacing. And guess what? Suprise suprise, my energy guzzling spotlamps are consistently cheaper to run factoring in all of the above and allowing spotlight bulb changes as they blow, which, equates to about a bulb a year, I’ve just bought the second box of siz bulbs since I moved in here seven years ago…

 

[8ob]

A friend has just completed a new build which had to include some form of air source heat pump (Part of building regs). He is very impressed with the difference the insulation has made, not so impressed with the heating system. Log burner is being installed as we speak.

Bob

 

[daleyd]

My sister had one installed probably about 15 years ago or so - in a new build, that her husband had done. It’s cost an absolute fortune to run but I’m not sure I would read much into that as he had done a lot of the work himself and I’m not sure he understood many/any of the requirements. He installed underfloor heating and the house is well insulated but I get the impression he simply installed it in place of a traditional boiler - at the time they were very new so I think he jumped in without knowing the real implications.

I guess the thing that proves is that when done badly it can be a money pit.

 

[Kayos]

No doubt the resident greenie will crucify me for saying it, but just how many years will it take to (A) pay off the install and (B) you actually start saving money on your heating bills over if you hadn’t fitted one? Let’s leave the variables out, ie size of house, location, colur of toilet paper you use. Let’s set the playing field level. Average 3 bedroomed detached house , pretty well insulated and in the south east of England?

Reminds me of the Muppet who installed the smart meter who informed me of how many millions of pounds the spotlights in the kitchen were costing me. I said ok, let’s work this out quickly. Priced up the new led light fittings and led bulbs. Threw a lowball price in for an electrician to change the energy guzzling spotlights. Factored in the average lifespan on the led’s before they needed replacing. And guess what? Suprise suprise, my energy guzzling spotlamps are consistently cheaper to run factoring in all of the above and allowing spotlight bulb changes as they blow, which, equates to about a bulb a year, I’ve just bought the second box of siz bulbs since I moved in here seven years ago…

Depends on the project. We work on either 8 or 15 year payback period for heat pumps

Most clients however adopt a beyond payback strategy, the core ECM meets the payback but additional measures are installed to decarbonise and move away from a reliance on fossil fuels

I have recently completed a deal where we will buy out of a CHP contract, at £77k. However in year one the modelled savings are £150k so it is worth it in every sense

 

[MetalMonkey]

Worth a watch - obviously you have to take it all with a pinch of salt but certainly some points to look out for.

 

[Mikes]

Could I just dd that heat pumps aren't new technology and have been around and used for a long period of time. All that has changed is the need to find lower carbon emitting heat sources and to this end, they have come into the limelight. Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s Essex County Council had an Energy Conservation Unit which looked at reducing the heating demand for buildings and providing heat to buildings utilising different methods (they weren't the only ones either and shared research with other teams). They trialed both air source and ground source heat pumps in real life buildings and monitored their performance in every way. They didn't get taken up as the alternatives (oil, gas etc) were so relatively cheap and the need to minimise use of these fuels was not really in the equation. The unit's chief guru was a good friend and we had some interesting chats. They were also heavily involved with small scale combined heat and power and trialed several 'Totem' units which were basically a 1000cc Fiat engine adapted to run on gas coupled to an alternator and provided with a heat exchanger rather than a radiator. These were trialled at a swimming pool and an old peoples home both of which provided good results. Now CHP is no longer flavour of the month.
I have an excellent book 'Energy Conservation Equipment' by R M E Diamant which was published in 1984. Among the chapters are:
Total energy frome prime movers (CHP)
Fuel cells
Heat pumps
Energy storage
Heat recuperators
So you see these are not new ideas, just ones that have been around for a long while being brought up to date and reapplied. There's nowt new in engineering.

 

[Cobbler]

I worked for a builders merchant in the late 60’s to mid 70’s & these systems were being talked about as the future then. This was in a time of various fuel crisis’s & increasing costs, the all went quiet again as fuel costs decreased so became less viable.

 

[Morrisman]

Could I just dd that heat pumps aren't new technology and have been around and used for a long period of time. All that has changed is the need to find lower carbon emitting heat sources and to this end, they have come into the limelight. Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s Essex County Council had an Energy Conservation Unit which looked at reducing the heating demand for buildings and providing heat to buildings utilising different methods (they weren't the only ones either and shared research with other teams). They trialed both air source and ground source heat pumps in real life buildings and monitored their performance in every way. They didn't get taken up as the alternatives (oil, gas etc) were so relatively cheap and the need to minimise use of these fuels was not really in the equation. The unit's chief guru was a good friend and we had some interesting chats. They were also heavily involved with small scale combined heat and power and trialed several 'Totem' units which were basically a 1000cc Fiat engine adapted to run on gas coupled to an alternator and provided with a heat exchanger rather than a radiator. These were trialled at a swimming pool and an old peoples home both of which provided good results. Now CHP is no longer flavour of the month.
I have an excellent book 'Energy Conservation Equipment' by R M E Diamant which was published in 1984. Among the chapters are:
Total energy frome prime movers (CHP)
Fuel cells
Heat pumps
Energy storage
Heat recuperators
So you see these are not new ideas, just ones that have been around for a long while being brought up to date and reapplied. There's nowt new in engineering.

Heat pumps have been fairly common in Australia for at least 30 years that I know of, and used for both heating and cooling. Guys I used to work with reckon they are great.

There's a couple installed in my quiet little village here in Blighty, I can hear them running from the other end of the street when I'm out walking my dog, a loud whirring sound. I can imagine a row of houses, each sporting one of them, the noise could be pretty intrusive.

Theoretically, everybody would have windows closed up tight when their heating is on, so the noise would be kept out, but I have my bedroom window (bungalow, sliding door) open every night, for fresh air.

 

[JimmyS]

Could I just dd that heat pumps aren't new technology and have been around and used for a long period of time. All that has changed is the need to find lower carbon emitting heat sources and to this end, they have come into the limelight. Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s Essex County Council had an Energy Conservation Unit which looked at reducing the heating demand for buildings and providing heat to buildings utilising different methods (they weren't the only ones either and shared research with other teams). They trialed both air source and ground source heat pumps in real life buildings and monitored their performance in every way. They didn't get taken up as the alternatives (oil, gas etc) were so relatively cheap and the need to minimise use of these fuels was not really in the equation. The unit's chief guru was a good friend and we had some interesting chats. They were also heavily involved with small scale combined heat and power and trialed several 'Totem' units which were basically a 1000cc Fiat engine adapted to run on gas coupled to an alternator and provided with a heat exchanger rather than a radiator. These were trialled at a swimming pool and an old peoples home both of which provided good results. Now CHP is no longer flavour of the month.
I have an excellent book 'Energy Conservation Equipment' by R M E Diamant which was published in 1984. Among the chapters are:
Total energy frome prime movers (CHP)
Fuel cells
Heat pumps
Energy storage
Heat recuperators
So you see these are not new ideas, just ones that have been around for a long while being brought up to date and reapplied. There's nowt new in engineering.

Yes been around as long as the vapour compression refrigeration cycle. The refrigerants are getting better though.

The air source units running on R290 (propane) have pretty impressive COP's. Its got a pretty good ability to transfer heat when you look at the PH charts. Ammonia (R717) is better however in terms of heat transfer, just a pity its toxic/ flamable and explosive and reeks generally. Dont miss the prospects of having to go into sort out ammonia leaks with BA on, its environmentally friendly tho - not as environmentally friendly as refrigerant R718 however which reminds me its tea break time lol.

 

[Kayos]

Yes been around as long as the vapour compression refrigeration cycle. The refrigerants are getting better though.

The air source units running on R290 (propane) have pretty impressive COP's. Its got a pretty good ability to transfer heat when you look at the PH charts. Ammonia (R717) is better however in terms of heat transfer, just a pity its toxic/ flamable and explosive and reeks generally. Dont miss the prospects of having to go into sort out ammonia leaks with BA on, its environmentally friendly tho - not as environmentally friendly as refrigerant R718 however which reminds me its tea break time lol.

Not sure water is used in any practical applications, although I have installed some large scale Co2 heat pumps, just have to maintain the Delta T

 

[JimmyS]

Not sure water is used in any practical applications, although I have installed some large scale Co2 heat pumps, just have to maintain the Delta T

Only use I know of was the water/ lithium bromide absorbtion cycle. I think Carrier had some systems many moons ago. I've never used it. Would need to run in a vaccum and I think the Lithium Bromide water mix was corrosive as hell. CO2 is making a comeback. Was used years ago before the freons came along with others that were a bit problematic from a safety point of view such as R40. Just the asphyxiation risk and high operating pressures being the issue I suppose. Will be able to limit the refrigerant charge and use monitoring to make it safer, Ive never used one of the new CO2 jobs yet.