Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[GRW]

I think people automatically assume that everyone has a mobile phone & is able to get assistance.
Then, there's the fact that people are more self-absorbed & uninterested in the problems of someone they font know.
Also, there is a much higher level of distrust & suspicion of other people (somewhat understandable).
Then, there is the risk that the person you intended to help - mistrusts or misinterprets your intentions & sees you as a threat.
Finally, there's the increasing possibility of being embroiled in some legal pickle, even sued - for being daft enough to try and assist a fellow human being.

So - it's no surprise that people just drive on by really.

 

[Ubique]

As well, I note that using fast-chargers is (just as it is for Lead-Acid) detrimental to the life expectancy of the pack.

It seems to me that (despite being fully aware of the sensible limits and charging regimes for batteries) there is an insistence on ignoring best practice in the quest for better statistics to make the EV look better than it is.

If you want to get the most out of your EV battery - then really you have to:
- accelerate & drive slowly
- avoid heavy loading of the motors, and
- charge slowly using less than 50% of the theoretical & rated capacity of the cells.

Ergo the fast-charge network at service areas etc are detrimental fuel strategies for your very costly battery/EV..... but funnily enough that's not being talked about.

I sort-of agree about the fast chargers, the only caveat is that L-ion batteries have thermal monitoring & charge management as part of the 'pack' so would request a charge rate reduction if the temperature was rising outside of acceptable limits. A lead-acid battery of the various types available rely on external calculations to control the charge rate and therefore internal temperature - clearly this only applies on-vehicle, some also have a temperature sensor built into the BMS to provide a rudimentary temperature monitor.
My NOCO L-ion battery booster pack has a fast charge capability, I've no intention of using it.

 

[willie.macleod]

The piece I watched (with direct quotes from a Mr Toyota big boss on camera) was unequivocal - Toyota don't back EV's because they say that the EV cannot possibly meet future transport need. They didn't dress it up.

That was a brave moment for them as a company. I wonder what his shareholders are thinking?

Tesla built an international supercharger network at the start and continue to improve it.

Nissan made their dealers install CHAdeMO rapids to recharge customer Leafs at the start.

If Toyota are serious about hydrogen they need to build a national network for refuelling their vehicles otherwise who will? They seem to be the only mainatream manufacturer taking this view on hydrogen so could potentially gain a huge competitive advantage being first to market.

 

[GRW]

Agree with some of it …but…

Continuous heavy acceleration will heat the battery (all batteries have an internal resistance and will heat according to the IR^2 rule - the BMS will restrict the battery current-draw if the vehicle is driven beyond normal limits. The ‘insane’ acceleration starts on the earlier Teslas were limited to two starts in quick succession, IIRC. The Taycan was the first to make several repeated maximum acceleration runs without restriction.

‘Driving slowly’ is misleading or subjective. It is simply a matter of restricting the discharge rate to a safe ‘C’ rate.

The motor(s) are designed for loading to 100%. Nowt to do with the motors - it is the continuous battery discharge rate (the ‘C’ rate again. Speed at which one drives is not particularly important - other than higher speeds will reduce range by virtue of drag.

Dunno what you really mean by your last point. Batteries will easily charge at the 0.5C rate (but charging will decrease from high C rates, as full charge approaches - hence the “80%” rule. So no need to talk about it at all - unless you are someone who doesn’t know how these systems work.

My battery can safely be recharged (only between about 20-80%), in ideal conditions, at the 3.5C rate. Outside those values and the other constraints, the charge rate will be considerably reduced as deemed necessary by the BMS.

After considering my comments re the above, your ‘ergo’ comment becomes just about totally irrelevant. The 80% rule, with fast DC charging, will be implemented by all who are sensible and the charge rate will be diminished by the BMS above 80%, anyway. It is sooo well known that charging to 80% and discharging to 20%, with a fast DC charge, is the fastest way to travel between two points.

You can be assured that the manufacturers have beaten you - to all of your suggestions for charging/discharging. They are way in front, for sure - very apparent from your postings.

That's a long winded post to suggest I'm ignorant & a bit fick.
I mentioned the motors.... because they are the LOAD upon the battery pack, and the harder you work the motors, the greater the current draw & heat the pack is subjected to! (Yes, I'm aware you know this - I'm just clearing up that so do I!). Maybe you should have made THAT connection instead of assuming I was dense, huh?

I used to programme charging regimens into off-grid inverter-chargers, and am well aware that the charging & system brain can be programmed to protect the batteries from going beyond X Discharge % (say 20%) and Y normal max charge (typically 80%) which the user won't even be aware of and cannot tamper with.
HOWEVER - given that there are these "Fast" Chargers with very short (in battery charge time terms) recharging, and at much higher Amperage rares to accomplish the charge in less time.... then this suggests to me that "best practice" charging is being set-aside in favour of mimimising inconvenience and time spent charging on journeys.

I do not claim to be an expert on EV's nor on Lithium Batteries. That does not mean I'm unable to think for myself.

Being condescending & dismissive just because you don't like my view on EV's as a viable transport solution - is reflecting more upon you - than upon me. I hope for your health that you moderate your output rather better in the real world

 

[rhubarb7]

Ha,ha,ha. These are LITHIUM ION batteries not NiCads. You are about a decade, or more, behind the times.

Any battery life can be shortened. Part-charging NiCads was a prime example. Overheating does no battery any good. Discharging automotive lead/ acid batteries and not replenishing that charge soon sulphates the plates; nor will discharging them to less than 50% state of charge - not even recommended on traction Pb batterries.

Litium ion cells are good because they do not get a ‘memory’. Full stop. However, they may develop dendrites if left for long periods at full charge and must not be completely discharged - all taken care of by the BMS.

However, the LIFePO4 batteries (that are only just being used in EVs) are actually recommended to be fully charged each week. liFePO4 batteries are inherently safer than the older chemistries because they do not easily catch on fire (cells can be impaled, with immunity, unlike older chemistries). The down-sides of these newer vehicle chemistry batteries is that of lower power density and reduced maximum discharge rate. But battery developments continue to improve. They are accepted as perfectly adequate for most EV models - most new Teslas now use that technology.

Please go back to school and try to come up with real reasons before showing yourself up with such claims.

Millions of Lithium ion batteries have been used in power tools - they superseded NiCads years ago.

Probably billions of mobile phones don’t get a ‘memory‘ problem - they usually fail due to high charge voltages for the cell (to maximise running time) and/or overheating.

If Lithium ion batteries suffered from a ‘memory’ problem like NiCads, most current EV batteries would be dead by now (like all those that have rarely, if ever, been charged above 80%.

All you can do is insult people. You must have a very sad life.

I have a Lithium Ion Laptop here that was left plugged in all the time. It was gifted to me, the battery is knackered, won't hold a charge for more than two hours.

And doing no harm, short rapid charging: Tell that to the Tesla owner I know, 2 1/2 years old and its range is now 60 miles.

 

[Erie Fred]

If Toyota are serious about hydrogen they need to build a national network for refuelling their vehicles otherwise who will? They seem to be the only mainatream manufacturer taking this view on hydrogen so could potentially gain a huge competitive advantage being first to market.

https://www.erienewsnow.com/story/49437637/houston-energy-firm-to-produce-clean-hydrogen-with-natural-gas-at-west-virginia-facility

 

[GRW]

I sort-of agree about the fast chargers, the only caveat is that L-ion batteries have thermal monitoring & charge management as part of the 'pack' so would request a charge rate reduction if the temperature was rising outside of acceptable limits. A lead-acid battery of the various types available rely on external calculations to control the charge rate and therefore internal temperature - clearly this only applies on-vehicle, some also have a temperature sensor built into the BMS to provide a rudimentary temperature monitor.
My NOCO L-ion battery booster pack has a fast charge capability, I've no intention of using it.

Yes, I aware of the tech in the L-ion batteries ref protection.
My point - was that they appear to be really pushing the limits, favouring short charge duration over the best procedure for battery life and battery long-term reliability.
Yes too on the Lead-Acid charging. You had battery temp sender which the charger used to adjust/compensate charging with battery temp change (as well as us being able to set parameters for staged voltage peaks, and Absorption Duration (also periodic Equalisation cycles etc).

 

[GRW]

That was a brave moment for them as a company. I wonder what his shareholders are thinking?

Tesla built an international supercharger network at the start and continue to improve it.

Nissan made their dealers install CHAdeMO rapids to recharge customer Leafs at the start.

If Toyota are serious about hydrogen they need to build a national network for refuelling their vehicles otherwise who will? They seem to be the only mainatream manufacturer taking this view on hydrogen so could potentially gain a huge competitive advantage being first to market.

Toyota's big cheese stated their reasons for not getting behind EV's, & their focus on Hydrogen as a more viable direction.
The commentary regarding a lot of the rest, was I think "fleshing-out" of the piece by whomever produced the video.

 

[Ubique]

It's interesting that those (not just on this website, but wordwide) that had been pointing out the bleedin' obvious that the supply of batteries and electricity to charge them is not an infinite pool, were universally rounded upon as Luddites or Heretics going against the new religion of 'green' power ('power' in all it's senses) - now Toyota have put their head above the parapet, BEV interest & sales are declining (certainly from what I see in work), Renault are focussing on Hybrid tech and Tesla are shown to be peddling 'the Emperors new clothes', maybe 'we' can get back to reality and look at proper alternatives - hell, maybe we might even get back to being satisfied with just 'male' & 'female' genders?

 

[rhubarb7]

Yes, I aware of the tech in the L-ion batteries ref protection.
My point - was that they appear to be really pushing the limits, favouring short charge duration over the best procedure for battery life and battery long-term reliability.
Yes too on the Lead-Acid charging. You had battery temp sender which the charger used to adjust/compensate charging with battery temp change (as well as us being able to set parameters for staged voltage peaks, and Absorption Duration (also periodic Equalisation cycles etc).

Must be the reason why they catch fire. And lose their range over time.

But hey ho what do I know lol.


Compare it to pushing modern dervs for power and wondering why they go wrong a lot.

 

[GRW]

That was a brave moment for them as a company. I wonder what his shareholders are thinking?

Tesla built an international supercharger network at the start and continue to improve it.

Nissan made their dealers install CHAdeMO rapids to recharge customer Leafs at the start.

If Toyota are serious about hydrogen they need to build a national network for refuelling their vehicles otherwise who will? They seem to be the only mainatream manufacturer taking this view on hydrogen so could potentially gain a huge competitive advantage being first to market.

I don't think from the video that Toyota were looking to get into the Hydrogen Plant business - but who knows!
The message was though that they viewed Hydrogen as a more realistic avenue than EV.

I think (my take) is that Toyota see both Electric & Hydrogen as facing similar problems regarding the Energy Source (i.e. massive electricity resources for generation & distribution) FOR refuelling. There was the admitted problem that EV charging was getting much more support from Govts than Hydrogen Production (i.e. hardly any).
For either EV or Hydrogen cars as a mass transport solution, Toyota I think see Electrical Energy as the stumbling block - their choice to focus on hydrogen vehicles over EV seemed based far more that they were convinced that EV's were absolutely the wrong avenue & non-viable (as per earlier post)

 

[premmington]

It's interesting that those (not just on this website, but wordwide) that had been pointing out the bleedin' obvious that the supply of batteries and electricity to charge them is not an infinite pool, were universally rounded upon as Luddites or Heretics going against the new religion of 'green' power ('power' in all it's senses) - now Toyota have put their head above the parapet, BEV interest & sales are declining (certainly from what I see in work), Renault are focussing on Hybrid tech and Tesla are shown to be peddling 'the Emperors new clothes', maybe 'we' can get back to reality and look at proper alternatives - hell, maybe we might even get back to being satisfied with just 'male' & 'female' genders?

They have to explore all avenues for fueling transport.

Bevs will be apart of it - city cars.

There is not enough lithium on the planet to fuel 75% of the road transport we have now - let alone fueling a growing world transport market.

--------

We will see - what I can say is - it will be a changing market place!

From what I can make out - Toyota the planets biggest vehicle manufacturer - are sticking to the concept of PHEVS (correct me if I am wrong).

 

[GRW]

- hell, maybe we might even get back to being satisfied with just 'male' & 'female' genders?

Really there ARE only 2 actual Genders.
The rest are all "wishes" or "wants" - I can see & accept there are people who feel with every fibre of their being.... that they were born as the wrong gender in the wrong body - bit even that doesn't change the physical reality.
I identify as a multi-millionaire..... but that does not make me one.

I'm all for tolerance & acceptance of individual differences, but we should draw the line at fiction & fantasy. It is what it is & all that

 

[premmington]

Really there ARE only 2 actual Genders.
The rest are all "wishes" or "wants" - I can see & accept there are people who feel with every fibre of their being.... that they were born as the wrong gender in the wrong body - bit even that doesn't change the physical reality.
I identify as a multi-millionaire..... but that does not make me one.

I'm all for tolerance & acceptance of individual differences, but we should draw the line at fiction & fantasy. It is what it is & all that

@GRW - hold this thought mate!

"why should I be so happy with what ever sexual gender they want to be - when they were so unhappy with the sexual gender they were born with"

 

[Ubique]

They have to explore all avenues for fueling transport.

Bevs will be apart of it - city cars.

There is not enough lithium on the planet to fuel 75% of the road transport we have now - let alone fueling a growing world transport market.

--------

We will see - what I can say is - it will be a changing market place!

From what I can make out - Toyota the planets biggest vehicle manufacturer - are sticking to the concept of PHEVS (correct me if I am wrong).

I do wonder if the Taliban / AQ will be swapping out their diesel planet (and people) killing pickups for more sustainable transport - the thought of putting a LAW into a L-ion battery or hydrogen tank underneath some scrotes hosing down a village with a Dushka makes me smile.

Finally, I've found a positive in all this

 

[premmington]

I do wonder if the Taliban / AQ will be swapping out their diesel planet (and people) killing pickups for more sustainable transport - the thought of putting a LAW into a L-ion battery or hydrogen tank underneath some scrotes hosing down a village with a Dushka makes me smile.

Finally, I've found a positive in all this

Can't see a BEV "technical" with a 50cal on it working somehow mate...

 

[redlig]

I think people automatically assume that everyone has a mobile phone & is able to get assistance.
Then, there's the fact that people are more self-absorbed & uninterested in the problems of someone they font know.
Also, there is a much higher level of distrust & suspicion of other people (somewhat understandable).
Then, there is the risk that the person you intended to help - mistrusts or misinterprets your intentions & sees you as a threat.
Finally, there's the increasing possibility of being embroiled in some legal pickle, even sued - for being daft enough to try and assist a fellow human being.

So - it's no surprise that people just drive on by really.

The surprising thing I find that if you do "break the ice" most people will respond positively and if done lightheartedly will produce a smile and a good reply. It's all a question of your initial approach .

 

[GRW]

The surprising thing I find that if you do "break the ice" most people will respond positively and if done lightheartedly will produce a smile and a good reply. It's all a question of your initial approach .

Fortunately in rural Wales where I womble about, there is still a good chance (away from the main arteries anyway) that a motorist /local farmer etc will stop & enquire if you're OK, and if you need assistance.
The bigger the road &/or conurbation though, the lower the chances are.

 

[DAPPH]

They have to explore all avenues for fueling transport.

Bevs will be apart of it - city cars.

There is not enough lithium on the planet to fuel 75% of the road transport we have now - let alone fueling a growing world transport market.

--------

We will see - what I can say is - it will be a changing market place!

From what I can make out - Toyota the planets biggest vehicle manufacturer - are sticking to the concept of PHEVS (correct me if I am wrong).

Happen lithium is just a stop gap electric battery form and will shortly be superceeded by an equal or greater capacity battery of water , ceramics and aluminium with microscopic holes in it . So long as you get the same dimension for change over batteries then no one will be much the wiser .

 

[DAPPH]

It's interesting that those (not just on this website, but wordwide) that had been pointing out the bleedin' obvious that the supply of batteries and electricity to charge them is not an infinite pool, were universally rounded upon as Luddites or Heretics going against the new religion of 'green' power ('power' in all it's senses) - now Toyota have put their head above the parapet, BEV interest & sales are declining (certainly from what I see in work), Renault are focussing on Hybrid tech and Tesla are shown to be peddling 'the Emperors new clothes', maybe 'we' can get back to reality and look at proper alternatives - hell, maybe we might even get back to being satisfied with just 'male' & 'female' genders?

Put Toyota electric vehicles into your search engine to see their current all battery EV range .