Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[rhubarb7]

My relations have just told me that their neighbours 2 and a half year old Tesla X with very noisy suspension struggles to do a 60 mile journey. Requires a 30 minute top up en-route..Must be something very wrong with it.

2500kgs of neglected status symbol.


I watched a Panorama program on EV's last night, 60 grands worth of VW 7 seater. Felt sorry for the presenter, most places he went he had proper trouble with the chargers or they were out of order.

Which made me think: There's a lot of these things only get a 30 minute or 60 minute fast charge. That sure as hell can't be doing the batteries any good. Shorten their life and cycle, treating them like that.

 

[daleyd]

My relations have just told me that their neighbours 2 and a half year old Tesla X with very noisy suspension struggles to do a 60 mile journey. Requires a 30 minute top up en-route..Must be something very wrong with it.

2500kgs of neglected status symbol.


I watched a Panorama program on EV's last night, 60 grands worth of VW 7 seater. Felt sorry for the presenter, most places he went he had proper trouble with the chargers or they were out of order.

Which made me think: There's a lot of these things only get a 30 minute or 60 minute fast charge. That sure as hell can't be doing the batteries any good. Shorten their life and cycle, treating them like that.

There’s quite a few early Tesla model s that have done starship mileage, I believe one is approaching a million miles? One was an Uber car that was almost exclusively charged using rapid chargers, something that the majority of people charging at home wouldn’t do on a regular basis.

I’d assume at 2.5 years it should be replaced/repaired under the Tesla drivetrain warranty?(I think it’s 10 years warranty - could be wrong - I don’t own a Tesla and am unlikely to own one… )

The panorama programme seemed odd - the guy doing the trip didn’t do 5 mins of checking anything out before he left (zap map or other apps can plot your route and direct you to the best charging stations, highlighting non working ones etc), and when he charged he used what’s usually termed a “destination charger” - which is more akin to a “slow” home charger rather than a proper rapid charger. I guess it highlights the infrastructure needs more work, which is obviously an issue - but on the flip side lots of people do long trips regularly with very few issues. The Tesla charging network is supposedly very good.

 

[Ubique]

I don't work for or on Teslas so I have no first-hand knowledge, I do remember hearing that the battery warranty is restricted to a certain number of fast charges and/or a certain number of charges over 80%. I don't have the time or enthusiasm to decrypt a Tesla warranty document so it may or may not be the case. I do know that most, if not all BEV manufacturers have the default recommended charge strategy to 80% and the independent battery test & charging equipment manufacturer don't recommend habitually charging to 'full'. https://www.midtronics.com/blog/is-it-bad-to-charge-an-electric-vehicle-to-100/

ETA I did find this about the 2020 changes to Tesla warranties, as stated in the article, there is dubious legality in some or most of the changes, however, if you bought or leased your Tesla since 2020, they're the current terms.

Tesla Changes Warranty Terms To Shield Against Recent Issues

Tesla has changed its warranty terms and the modifications look tailor-made for most of the issues customers are complaining or suing about.

insideevs.com

 

[GRW]

I don't work for or on Teslas so I have no first-hand knowledge, I do remember hearing that the battery warranty is restricted to a certain number of fast charges and/or a certain number of charges over 80%. I don't have the time or enthusiasm to decrypt a Tesla warranty document so it may or may not be the case. I do know that most, if not all BEV manufacturers have the default recommended charge strategy to 80% and the independent battery test & charging equipment manufacturer don't recommend habitually charging to 'full'. https://www.midtronics.com/blog/is-it-bad-to-charge-an-electric-vehicle-to-100/

I don't know anything about Lithium batteries, but of the advice is generally not to charge over 80%... then it sounds like they cannot be that much different to the old Lead-Acid pack charging regimens (where the normal operating range was in the flattest part of the charge/discharge voltage graph curve between 20-25% and 80% - with 80-100% reserved for periodic Equalisation cycles only).
For longevity of Lead-Acid, peak charge rates were kept within 15% of total AH capacity per hour (much higher than that shortened battery life) - but I understand Lithium can tolerate a far more aggressive charge rate. However, you'd still expect rapid (high voltage & current) charges to age the composition of the cells more?

 

[willie.macleod]

Long term reviews with taxis show that babying a battery by slow charging to 80% isn't necessarily the best way to treat a battery and constant rapids don't necessarily cause harm.

Nissan electric taxis pass three million mile mark in UK

Nissan’s electric vehicles have now clocked up in excess of three million miles as taxis in the UK.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

I always charge to 100% every night although I do my utmost to avoid it going below 20%. Seem to lose capacity mostly based on age rather than charging habits. All EVs have battey management systems built in, the manufacturers are doing the management of the cells for you. If you never charge to 100% the cells won't balance and that will cause more issues.

 

[Ubique]

In response to GRW - That's the way I see it, Lithium charging strategies are part of the training package but in reality, they're 'black box' we can't see the strategy, just the current & cell volts - and can't change anything other than update the software of the charger and battery management controllers.
In response to willie.macleod, it seems to be that 100% charging is OK if you're going to use it - there is also a question as to if it really is 100%. Some batteries have the ability to swap bad cell out and standby cells in, which would imply that they have an artificial ceiling, so maybe your 100% is really 90-95%?

 

[premmington]

I don't work for or on Teslas so I have no first-hand knowledge, I do remember hearing that the battery warranty is restricted to a certain number of fast charges and/or a certain number of charges over 80%. I don't have the time or enthusiasm to decrypt a Tesla warranty document so it may or may not be the case. I do know that most, if not all BEV manufacturers have the default recommended charge strategy to 80% and the independent battery test & charging equipment manufacturer don't recommend habitually charging to 'full'. https://www.midtronics.com/blog/is-it-bad-to-charge-an-electric-vehicle-to-100/

ETA I did find this about the 2020 changes to Tesla warranties, as stated in the article, there is dubious legality in some or most of the changes, however, if you bought or leased your Tesla since 2020, they're the current terms.

Tesla Changes Warranty Terms To Shield Against Recent Issues

Tesla has changed its warranty terms and the modifications look tailor-made for most of the issues customers are complaining or suing about.

insideevs.com

The 80% charge strategy is pretty normal.

The other hidden - but not as risky as it sounds (but could be a problem) is... Paid public fast chargers - use there own leads and own charging curve.

How this will affect long term battery performance - nobody really know yet - not enough data about.

-------------

But we seen damage from cheap after market charging leads at our workshop already.

 

[premmington]

That's the way I see it, Lithium charging strategies are part of the training package but in reality, they're 'black box' we can't see the strategy, just the current & cell volts - and can't change anything other than update the software of the charger and battery management controllers

I not explaining myself very well here - when using a public charger - you using there software not your car makers software.

 

[GRW]

Long term reviews with taxis show that babying a battery by slow charging to 80% isn't necessarily the best way to treat a battery and constant rapids don't necessarily cause harm.

Nissan electric taxis pass three million mile mark in UK

Nissan’s electric vehicles have now clocked up in excess of three million miles as taxis in the UK.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

I always charge to 100% every night although I do my utmost to avoid it going below 20%. Seem to lose capacity mostly based on age rather than charging habits. All EVs have battey management systems built in, the manufacturers are doing the management of the cells for you. If you never charge to 100% the cells won't balance and that will cause more issues.

The thing is... while you're charging to "100%" of what the management system allows - that doesn't mean you're charging to 100% of the cells potential (I.e. the mfr will have set protection levels at the top & bottom to prevent the user from mis-charging).
So I expect that your 20% isn't actually the true 20% discharge either, but 20% of the range they allow you to access.

 

[Ubique]

I not explaining myself very well here - when using a public charger - you using there software not your car makers software.

Sorry, I mean the onboard charge controller, not the (relatively) dumb street power pole. DC fast chargers bypass most of the charge controller and go straight to the BMS, thats where you're reliant upon the charge strategy of the charger manufacturer.

 

[willie.macleod]

The other hidden - but not as risky as it sounds (but could be a problem) is... Paid public fast chargers - use there own leads and own charging curve.

The public fast chargers only supply energy at the rate the cars BMS ask for it, so its still the manufacturers charging curves being utilised.

 

[GRW]

I not explaining myself very well here - when using a public charger - you using there software not your car makers software.

Doesnt the car have inbuilt protection software to protect it from being mis-charged (or charged outside of mfr recommended parameters) - so that "non-mfr" 3rd party charge points cannot damage the car???

 

[premmington]

The public fast chargers only supply energy at the rate the cars BMS ask for it, so its still the manufacturers charging curves being utilised.

Close and yes I agree to a point (99.5%). But there is still a risk of damage (if only silly tiny).

 

[premmington]

Doesnt the car have inbuilt protection software to protect it from being mis-charged (or charged outside of mfr recommended parameters) - so that "non-mfr" 3rd party charge points cannot damage the car???

Yes and no - is the answer to this. More yes than no - but the risk is still there.

But on an ICE - you could refuel with Derv with a high water content of Petrol with high silicon content (this does and has happened).

 

[GRW]

Sorry, I mean the onboard charge controller, not the (relatively) dumb street power pole. DC fast chargers bypass most of the charge controller and go straight to the BMS, thats where you're reliant upon the charge strategy of the charger manufacturer.

That seems like a crazy system and oversight by Mfrs. I'd have expected them to ring-fence the charging security to prevent damage from 3rd-party charging!
That just seems well.... shoddy to me.

 

[GRW]

Yes and no - is the answer to this. More yes than no - but the risk is still there.

But on an ICE - you could refuel with Derv with a high water content of Petrol with high silicon content (this does and has happened).

Very true ref mis-fuelling - but you cannot regulate people.
They can though, regulate and control electricity delivery to the nth-degree, & reject or modulate the charge supply?

 

[Ubique]

Doesnt the car have inbuilt protection software to protect it from being mis-charged (or charged outside of mfr recommended parameters) - so that "non-mfr" 3rd party charge points cannot damage the car???

"it should do" - and in most cases the BMS will do it's best (subject ot the programmers capability) to prevent a thermal event, in reality, it depends upon the build quality of the cells, only one going rogue can (and has) caused the whole assembly to turn to liquid fire, obviously consuming the whole vehicle.

 

[GRW]

"it should do" - and in most cases the BMS will do it's best (subject ot the programmers capability) to prevent a thermal event, in reality, it depends upon the build quality of the cells, only one going rogue can (and has) caused the whole assembly to turn to liquid fire, obviously consuming the whole vehicle.

Sobering.
Given there has been the ability to measure cell temps (& to get a charger to compensate & adjust its charge rate to suit) - and to measure cell voltages (so a cell temp & voltage variation outside of safe parameters can be used to trigger a charge cutoff, alarms etc)... for decades.... then the fact that there are "holes" in these EV systems - is genuinely surprising.

 

[Ubique]

That seems like a crazy system and oversight by Mfrs. I'd have expected them to ring-fence the charging security to prevent damage from 3rd-party charging!
That just seems well.... shoddy to me.

It's not that bad, the charge connector has a data loop in it so the DC fast charger can communicate directly with the BMS. The BMS can shut the communication down if there is an event that requires an immediate disconnect, but in some cases, the damage will already be done.

The charging cables in the photo look like fast DC to me.

 

[premmington]

"it should do" - and in most cases the BMS will do it's best (subject ot the programmers capability) to prevent a thermal event, in reality, it depends upon the build quality of the cells, only one going rogue can (and has) caused the whole assembly to turn to liquid fire, obviously consuming the whole vehicle.

I think the biggest risk from a public fast charger is physical damage from the plug and drop (ing) phase from incomers on high KW chargers.

We get dropping phases sometimes on our industrial estate - it has caused damage to CNC machines in the big sheet metal shop.

It is not the battery that would get damaged - they only suck power in - but the control gear on the car.