Please recommended me milling machine collets and tool holder

[Smouser]

With my birthday and Christmas fast approaching, now is the perfect time to choose some collets and a tool holder for my Elliott TV2 mill which my better half can buy

The current plan (due to too many projects and a lack of time) is to get the milling machine in working order with refurbishment and painting to follow somewhere in 2023.
I have already rewired the motors to 230v three-phase DELTA and painted the motors which are currently drying on the dining room table, much to the delight of my wife.

A couple of VFDs and some switches are the only two missing pieces to get the mill operational make it run.

Tooling
Let's start with what I have got with the mill.
• Clarkson Autolock 30INT tool holder with 3/8” thread for drawbar + 4 collets (no sizes on them and I have not measured them yet).
• 30INT MT3 Arbor/sleeve/adaptor with ½” thread for drawbar
• Drawbar with a combination of 3/8” thread and ½” thread (total length of drawbar ~600mm)
• 6 x '6692' imperial collets (currently do not have a tool holder to fit them)

What I think I want/need:
ER32 or ER40 Collect set (it seems ER40 might be the better option with more collet sizes)
Tool holder (30INT / BT30)
Drawbar M12
ER32 or ER40 collet block

I also got an Elliott Omnispeed lathe which I could potentially use the collets on .

A rough budget would be something between £150 - £280.

I found a few ER40 options online but my knowledge of milling tool holders and collets is very limited and none of the below options might be any good.
30int - ER40 Collet Chuck And Full 23pc Collet Set (3-25mm)
HBM 23-part ER 40 collet set
Omega Products ER40 Collet Set Standard Precision - 10 Micron Run-Out - 23 Pieces
ER40 Collet Set (0.010mm Run Out) Standard Precision - 23 Pieces

Looking forward to some recommendations!

 

[Kram]

Id recommend some oversize too atleast for lathe use, mill might not need them.

If you go with Er40, theres a chinese seller I usd who does a set of oversize, 27-32mm which are good ( I have 28 and 32mm, got them before they did a set)

ER40-27 + ER40-28 + ER40-29 + ER40-30 + ER40-31 + ER40-32 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ER40-27 + ER40-28 + ER40-29 + ER40-30 + ER40-31 + ER40-32 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

er40 | eBay

I got a 30mm here

ER40 Collet - Singles - Sizes: 3-30mm | eBay

Single ER40 Collet. - H.Z., Italy.

www.ebay.co.uk

Collet Sets Associated Production Tools

ER Collet sets ER16 1-10mm ER25 2-16mm ER32 3-20mm ER40 3-26mm APT brand by Associated Production Tools Ltd

www.shop-apt.co.uk

They dont seem to have er40 chucks in bt30 size.

For lathe, its easy to turn a holder, but, the spindle mounting /backplate is often the harder bit to produce.

 

[Agroshield]

The existing collets are made by Crawford Collets (the two intertwining letter 'C' is their logo). There is a Crawford catalogue at lathes.co.uk , maybe also at Rotagrip. Unless you can find the correct holder, it would be better to sell them and invest the money in new tooling.

Unless you have a lot of screwed shank milling cutters, I would sell the Autolock chuck as well.

With 30 taper, you can find 1/2"-13 UNC threads and 1/2"-12 BSW threads, so verify what you have. Allthread stud is good for a drawbar and is available in all three options (I think GWR Fasteners has all three in stock if you want a one stop shop).

How much headroom does the mill have? ER40 on 30 taper is both longer and greater diameter than ER32 (ER40 is roughly the same length as the Autolock but the nut is bigger diameter). This can be a disadvantage in some situations. See what the price of Vertex collets is from Rotagrip. Another option is Gloster Tooling.

 

[Shox Dr]

ER40 is good for holding parts, not sure there's a need for tooling

 

[Munkul]

I would get an ER40 collet chuck and a full set of collets... they'll get you away. Then maybe get an ER16/ER25 collet chuck and a few individual collets for smaller end mills at a later date.

 

[Kram]

ER40 is good for holding parts, not sure there's a need for tooling

Depends on the tooling. I have 25mm and 32mm endmills that amazon/YG had cheap.

Which reminds me, I may have a spare arbour, either 30 or 40 taper, for facemills if thats usefull, I'll dig it out.
Facemills tend to need their own arbour which annoyingly, is matched to each size. I prefer facemills, within reason, for finishing bigger stuff.

 

[Smouser]

The existing collets are made by Crawford Collets (the two intertwining letter 'C' is their logo). There is a Crawford catalogue at lathes.co.uk , maybe also at Rotagrip. Unless you can find the correct holder, it would be better to sell them and invest the money in new tooling.

Unless you have a lot of screwed shank milling cutters, I would sell the Autolock chuck as well.

With 30 taper, you can find 1/2"-13 UNC threads and 1/2"-12 BSW threads, so verify what you have. Allthread stud is good for a drawbar and is available in all three options (I think GWR Fasteners has all three in stock if you want a one stop shop).

How much headroom does the mill have? ER40 on 30 taper is both longer and greater diameter than ER32 (ER40 is roughly the same length as the Autolock but the nut is bigger diameter). This can be a disadvantage in some situations. See what the price of Vertex collets is from Rotagrip. Another option is Gloster Tooling.

Thanks @Agroshield. You have given me a few things to consider.
I have got a few threaded milling bits which fit in one of the Autolock collets.
I don't have the correct collets for the larger ones.

The mill has got enough headroom, it is fitted with a riser block so an ER40 tool holder should not be a problem.

 

[Smouser]

Depends on the tooling. I have 25mm and 32mm endmills that amazon/YG had cheap.

Which reminds me, I may have a spare arbour, either 30 or 40 taper, for facemills if thats usefull, I'll dig it out.
Facemills tend to need their own arbour which annoyingly, is matched to each size. I prefer facemills, within reason, for finishing bigger stuff.

Thanks Kram, my Elliott has got a 30 taper.

 

[Munkul]

22mm arbor is a good size for facemills, will take 50-63mm facemills.
You need some real speed and horsepower to get the most out of a facemill though. 63mm facemill likes 1500rpm minimum and can overload my 5hp motor without much effort. 50mm is easier at 2000rpm and less load.
"Proper" mills with 8krpm+ and 30hp can use facemills with much greater effect.

 

[Kram]

I was given /acquired lots of older loose cutters and they turned out to be blunt rubbish and very few were usable, with cheap chinese ones giving much better result. It may be from being stored and rattling around.

Get yourself a block of cutter wax to protect them ( it pulls off and can be replaced on the cutter easily)

Protective Coating Red-Hot-Dip | Zoro UK

Protective Coating Red-Hot-Dip, 2 products available to order online. Next day delivery available on most items, free delivery on orders over £25!

www.zoro.co.uk

Some larger cutters to help persuade you to er40

YG-1 ESH751260 26mm Premium HSS Coarse Pitch Ripper 6 Flute Short (New Century YG-1 : Amazon.co.uk: Business, Industry & Science

Buy YG-1 ESH751260 26mm Premium HSS Coarse Pitch Ripper 6 Flute Short (New Century YG-1 at Amazon UK. Free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

YG-1 E2598300 30mm Uncoated HSSCo8 6 Flute End Mill Long : Amazon.co.uk: Business, Industry & Science

Buy YG-1 E2598300 30mm Uncoated HSSCo8 6 Flute End Mill Long at Amazon UK. Free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

Amazon.co.uk : End Mills yg

36mm. You'd need to turn a holder for it

https://www.amazon.co.uk/YG-1-E2751360-Uncoated-HSSCo8-Coarse/dp/B0791XXXW1/

You need some real speed and horsepower to get the most out of a facemill though. 63mm facemill likes 1500rpm minimum and can overload my 5hp motor without much effort. 50mm is easier.

My lathe can run 50mm in steel with a 1mm deep cut, thats only 1.5kw, the belt was slipping a little but motor was nowhere near limit.
Id say 80-160mm would be nice to have on a proper mill, so either 27 or 32 arbour?

 

[Smouser]

Haha.

I am pretty set on an ER40 set as the first lot of collets and tool holder.
@Munkul's suggestion of potentially getting something slightly smaller later on also makes sense!

So, which set should I get or are all the ones I linked of similarish quality?

 

[Munkul]

My lathe can run 50mm in steel with a 1mm deep cut, thats only 1.5kw, the belt was slipping a little but motor was nowhere near limit.
Id say 80-160mm would be nice to have on a proper mill, so either 27 or 32 arbour?

You have more than one cutting tooth on a facemill, that's why they soak up hp.

Sure you can spin them and feed them slow, but you get a crap surface finish.

Not to mention rigidity... it stands that the bigger the mill, the stiffer it will be, within reason...

It's all about surface speed and feed per tooth, and you only get that from feeding it hard and fast.

That's why I say you want around 1500rpm starting speed with a 63mm mill... and then of course to feed it at a good rate of knots.

It's why you don't see many large facemills... because you need silly HP to run them as intended.

Having said all that, i keep looking out for a 150mm facemill that I could run with 3 or 4 evenly spaced teeth... would be kind of handy sometimes. Otherwise... that's what a fly cutter is for.

 

[pressbrake1]

ER40 is good for holding parts, not sure there's a need for tooling

Ideal as they go big enough for u drills and more importantly you can make up single point tooling and boring bars, hold microbore etc

 

[Munkul]

My lathe can run 50mm in steel with a 1mm deep cut, thats only 1.5kw, the belt was slipping a little but motor was nowhere near limit.
Id say 80-160mm would be nice to have on a proper mill, so either 27 or 32 arbour?

oh yeah when i say i overloaded my 5hp mill, I mean i tried ploughing straight through the middle of a bit of steel at 2mm deep with 63mm dia
To be fair, you should always just cut half diameter stepovers and start from an edge. That way, each tooth isn't trying to take an entire semi circle of "bite" each time, and it's even better if you can climb mill.
5hp handles up to 50mm of cutting engagement of a 63mm comfortably.

 

[Kram]

All true, tho you dont have to use all the insert slots. A light cut of say, 1-2mm depth to get a finish will take far less power than the full 5-15mm+ depth that they can do. Also depends on inserts, some are very negative/blunt and need a deep cut/power.

With aluminium inserts they are quite hard to beat n non ferrous vs a hand ground hss fly cutter bit. Yes you could use an insert fly cutter instead but much slower work.

Also the TV2 looks are fairly capable, rigid machine to me. Needs a bigger motor perhaps

 

[addjunkie]

oh yeah when i say i overloaded my 5hp mill, I mean i tried ploughing straight through the middle of a bit of steel at 2mm deep with 63mm dia
To be fair, you should always just cut half diameter stepovers and start from an edge. That way, each tooth isn't trying to take an entire semi circle of "bite" each time, and it's even better if you can climb mill.
5hp handles up to 50mm of cutting engagement of a 63mm comfortably.

Stand well back when you try these experiemnts!

 

[Smouser]

Also the TV2 looks are fairly capable, rigid machine to me. Needs a bigger motor perhaps

The old motors are much more powerful than their data plate suggests

 

[Agroshield]

"Proper" mills with 8krpm+ and 30hp can use facemills with much greater effect.

This is Kram's Warco in action. It is green, so it must be so:

 

[Shox Dr]

Ideal as they go big enough for u drills and more importantly you can make up single point tooling and boring bars, hold microbore etc

True enough. As @Munkul has eluded to, you need HP and a machine to suit to benefit of big tooling on a mill. So unless you trawl carboots for 50p 2" end mills...

 

[Kram]

This is Kram's Warco in action. It is green, so it must be so:

Mine is here