Which argon regulator for mig?

[Jack_K]

I am looking for a new argon regulator for mig welding car panels. What one or type is recommended?
I have a "D" size bottle with a side outlet. I have been using a cheap regulator but have been meaning to replace it and today I smashed a gauge so have decided I should finally do something about it.

These are some options I have:

 

[hotponyshoes]

Harris is a good maker.
Don't know about cobra.

Going on the prices it looks like you are after a decent one and if I was spending out on a decent one I would download the parts list first and see which of them offer spare parts/service kits and if the parts are actually available to order

 

[Jack_K]

Harris is a good maker.
Don't know about cobra.

Going on the prices it looks like you are after a decent one and if I was spending out on a decent one I would download the parts list first and see which of them offer spare parts/service kits and if the parts are actually available to order

Yes I am looking for something decent preferably not made in China etc. most places locally want $50-$80 for a cheap one so some of those aren't much more.

The Cobra ones say made in Europe but without knowing who actually makes them it wouldn't mean much.

I will now look at parts availability, I am guessing if any of the ones available have parts it would be the Harris.

Is there a type of regulator which is better, I had read about two stage ones but I can't seem to find many available.

 

[AKN]

How about :-
https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-GB/Products/le-emear-manobloc4

 

[Turbo]

I will now look at parts availability, I am guessing if any of the ones available have parts it would be the Harris.

You cannot buy parts for regulators any more, if it breaks buy a new one unless it's a very expensive model. In that case you can get it serviced by the manufacturer.

Personally I would buy a multi stage regulator. They used to be expensive but there's a link somewhere on the board for ones at a sensible price.

 

[northwest]

They used to be expensive but there's a link somewhere on the board for ones at a sensible price.

I think that has come to an end now but wait for someone who knows to chime in.

 

[tom2207]

buy a second hand , out of date medical one , a twin stage off e bay for 50 quid , it will do all you need and save the price of its self in two bottles of gas ,,,
all my kit except the acet bottle runs on out of date medical regs ... pay 300 quid for something I can get for 30 lol ,, no way , Ive not had one pack up yet , just turn the bottles off at the end of the day as its good practice anyway and the worst that can happen is you get a seat that wont seal , first pull of the trigger the initial pressure may be high , so what ,,, Im welding not doing open heart surgery.

 

[Jack_K]

Personally I would buy a multi stage regulator. They used to be expensive but there's a link somewhere on the board for ones at a sensible price.

I think that has come to an end now but wait for someone who knows to chime in.

The only dual stage regulators which come up when I search are actually not expensive. They are Bossweld ones ranging around $65 to $90 AUD. To me though Bossweld is a cheap brand so I am not sure I would trust them but if they are actually dual stage and should then work more efficently it might be worth it over a more expensive (Harris) single stage.

buy a second hand , out of date medical one , a twin stage off e bay for 50 quid , it will do all you need and save the price of its self in two bottles of gas ,,,

Is there a way to tell easily if they are twin stage? I can probably look up models if they aren't too old I guess.

If the ones I have found on ebay are twin stage it is probably worth it, the only issue is the fittings are different.

 

[tom2207]

twin stage will have a big bulge on the back , and usually say multi stage or the likes on the front ,,, once youve looked at a few two stage you will spot them a mile off ,,, but dont confuse twin dial , or two dial for twin stage .. hth

 

[Kram]

I dont see any point in dual stage. I rigged up a cheap air compressor regulator to make mine a dual stage but it had no advantage, extra bulky and has been removed.

As you cant service them, get a cheap one and expect to replace it every 5 years.

 

[tom2207]

I dont see any point in dual stage. I rigged up a cheap air compressor regulator to make mine a dual stage but it had no advantage, extra bulky and has been removed.

As you cant service them, get a cheap one and expect to replace it every 5 years.

if you do a lot of stitching you will soon see the point ,,, gas bill down by about 20% ,,, maybe more .
Replace it when it stops working , Ive regs that are 30 years old and going strong , I certainly wouldnt dream of replacing a working reg ,,, not in a home environment , different if your in a commercial set up .. hence the cheap regs.

 

[Jack Ryan]

if you do a lot of stitching you will soon see the point ,,, gas bill down by about 20% ,,, maybe more .
Replace it when it stops working , Ive regs that are 30 years old and going strong , I certainly wouldnt dream of replacing a working reg ,,,

Exactly how will that happen? Gas surge is not a function of the regulator type, just the delivery pressure and the volume of the delivery hose up to the gas solenoid.

I would be happy to be convinced otherwise though.

Jack

 

[tom2207]

Exactly how will that happen? Gas surge is not a function of the regulator type, just the delivery pressure and the volume of the delivery hose up to the gas solenoid.

I would be happy to be convinced otherwise though.

Jack

then try it ,,, and listen .

Equipment | Air Liquide

Discover our wide range of gas equipment and industry specific related equipment for wastewater treatment, food production and research and analysis.

industry.airliquide.co.uk

that may help you a wee bit.

 

[Jack Ryan]

then try it ,,, and listen .

Equipment | Air Liquide

Discover our wide range of gas equipment and industry specific related equipment for wastewater treatment, food production and research and analysis.

industry.airliquide.co.uk

that may help you a wee bit.

Tom,

I know the difference between a single stage and a two stage regulator and there is nothing is the design of a two stage regulator that will affect gas surge. Gas surge results from a combination of pressure and volume after the regulator. Some say that it is to do with the response time of the regulator but a single stage regulator responds faster than a multi stage regulator.

Sometimes, a cheap and nasty single stage regulator is replaced by a quality dual stage regulator and the improvements are attributed to the multi stage design. That is a case of correlation rather than causation and a quality single stage regulator would have done just as well.

A multi stage regulator is effective in minimising Supply Pressure Effect. This is useful if the gas supply comes from a cylinder bank or if there is heavy use of gas combined with continuous use. Otherwise a single stage regulator is fine.

The only time a dual stage regulator system helps with gas surge is if the second stage is fitted to the welding machine close to the gas solenoid. In that case, it is two single stage regulators.

I don't always get it right and if you can identify a mechanism whereby a multi stage regulator is responsible for gas surge, I will happily change my view.

Regards
Jack

 

[tom2207]

Tom,

I know the difference between a single stage and a two stage regulator and there is nothing is the design of a two stage regulator that will affect gas surge. Gas surge results from a combination of pressure and volume after the regulator. Some say that it is to do with the response time of the regulator but a single stage regulator responds faster than a multi stage regulator.

Sometimes, a cheap and nasty single stage regulator is replaced by a quality dual stage regulator and the improvements are attributed to the multi stage design. That is a case of correlation rather than causation and a quality single stage regulator would have done just as well.

A multi stage regulator is effective in minimising Supply Pressure Effect. This is useful if the gas supply comes from a cylinder bank or if there is heavy use of gas combined with continuous use. Otherwise a single stage regulator is fine.

The only time a dual stage regulator system helps with gas surge is if the second stage is fitted to the welding machine close to the gas solenoid. In that case, it is two single stage regulators.

I don't always get it right and if you can identify a mechanism whereby a multi stage regulator is responsible for gas surge, I will happily change my view.

Regards
Jack

try it ,,, then get back to me. if you stitch ill bet you see a huge change in gas consumption . Just listen to the two regs in operation and you will even hear the difference.

 

[Jack Ryan]

try it ,,, then get back to me. if you stitch ill bet you see a huge change in gas consumption .

Again, there is a difference between correlation and causation. I have used a dual stage regulator, I know how they work.

I read the article you linked to - it did not mention gas surge. That is because it is not caused by either regulator.

Jack

 

[Jack Ryan]

Tom,

I forgot to ask, can you give me links to two regulators that you used for your comparison? I'll see if I can see a reason for the difference you see.

Thanks
Jack

 

[tom2207]

Tom,

I forgot to ask, can you give me links to two regulators that you used for your comparison? I'll see if I can see a reason for the difference you see.

Thanks
Jack

I dont use two , I wouldnt have a single stage reg near me as the amount of gas i get through with them makes them totally nonviable. maybe its the smoother gas delivery that leads to the saving as the constant and more accurate gas delivery rate saves the tick his that you get with a single and turns it into a gentle flow ,, I find the harshness vanishes again its stitching , if you run welds all day i dont think it matters , but thin bodywork where your running hundreds of spots at a time is where the difference is really noticed .. believe me or not , find a technical reason for it or not , it makes no odds ,,, but when your paying for the gas and having to run for the bottles too the difference is huge. Just because you cant figure out why it makes a difference on paper does not stop it making a difference in real life, as Ive said try it and see, especially if your doing thin body work patching. My regs are what ever I can get second hand out of date and ex medical so they are a mix of anything and everything ,,, they pay for them selves in about two bottles of gas.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I dont use two ,

I didn't suggest that you did. I gave an example of two stages saving gas.

I wouldnt have a single stage reg near me as the amount of gas i get through with them makes them totally nonviable.

They will pass as much if not more as a multi stage regulator. Both types have a maximum flow - if you don't get enough gas, you have the wrong regulator.

maybe its the smoother gas delivery that leads to the saving as the constant and more accurate gas delivery rate saves the tick his that you get with a single and turns it into a gentle flow

That is gas surge and has nothing to do with the regulator and much to do with the calibrated delivery pressure and volume of gas hose.

,, I find the harshness vanishes again its stitching , if you run welds all day i dont think it matters , but thin bodywork where your running hundreds of spots at a time is where the difference is really noticed .. believe me or not , find a technical reason for it or not , it makes no odds ,,, but when your paying for the gas and having to run for the bottles too the difference is huge. Just because you cant figure out why it makes a difference on paper does not stop it making a difference in real life, as Ive said try it and see, especially if your doing thin body work patching. My regs are what ever I can get second hand out of date and ex medical so they are a mix of anything and everything ,,, they pay for them selves in about two bottles of gas.

They are not magic, if something happens, it is for a reason.

I would guess that your two stage regulator gas a lower delivery pressure. Most cheap single stage regulators are calibrated at 50 or more PSI - that is what causes gas surge. If you get a decent (say) Harris single stage regulator that is calibrated at 20 or so PSI, you won't get the hiss.

All this is easily verifiable - you just need to look.

In the end, if you are happy with what you have, that's fine. If information is going to be passed on though, it needs to be based on fact. It is one thing to say, "I use this and it works", it is entirely different to say "I use this and it works because it is a two stage regulator". That needs to be more than an assumption.

Anyway, enough of this, time to move on.

Best regards
Jack

 

[Jack_K]

I was thinking a better (dual stage) regulator would reduce the difference between the trigger on and off pressure, reducing gas consumption. Now that I think about it the higher initial pressure might actually help a bit anyway to fill the length of hose between the solenoid and nozzle when the trigger is pulled.

The fact dual stage regulators aren't common probably proves that it isn't necessary. Whatever I do for my type of welding the consumption would probably always be inefficient.

I will do some more research into options and find a regulator which is good value (quality but not heaps of extra cost for no benefit)