Learning from Hamburg 1943

[fizzy]

As the young Berlin tourguide on the bus said more than once whilst describing atrocities commited by the Nazis "when ze Nazis came" - he did itnso many times I was tempted to pipe up "what do you mean - "came?" You were here allready...

It's amazing how people - including our media in Britain - talk about the Nazis as if they were completely separate to the German people. No they WERE the German people!

 

[Ross365]

It's amazing how people - including our media in Britain - talk about the Nazis as if they were completely separate to the German people. No they WERE the German people!

Thatcher (whose 10 feet tall bronze statue is rumoured to sit in a side street in an obscure market town rather than Parliament Square), won three elections, but it would be incorrect to say that (then or now) all Britains were Thatcherites. Blair repeatedly won elections and then invaded Iraq, but many/most Britains were against it. Some believe he is a war criminal. Hitler got elected by a part of the German population (no Nazi candidate ever won an election in any part of Berlin), just like Thatcher and Blair... as did all the fabulous subsequent Prime Ministers, whom we so much admire!

 

[fizzy]

Thatcher (whose statue now sits in a side street in an obscure market town rather than Parliament Square), won three elections, but it would incorrect to say that (then or now) all Britains were Thatcherites. Blair repeatedly won elections and then invaded Iraq, but many/most Britains were against it. Hitler got elected, just like Thatcher and Blair... as did all the fabulous subsequent Prime Ministers whom we so much admire!

Obviously not all Germans supported Hitler but the vast majority did. Crystalnacht was an horrific example of this.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

I foresee

 

[Ross365]

Obviously not all Germans supported Hitler but the vast majority did. Crystalnacht was an horrific example of this.

The snag here is that WWII is really the outcome of WWI, and that had very little to do with the people of any country, but rather, the desire of the "elite" of those nations to go empire-building. Of course, the British empire was mainly acquired by an army with lots of Scottish soldiers, who just wanted to go somewhere warm .

 

[mrsbruce]

As the young Berlin tourguide on the bus said more than once whilst describing atrocities commited by the Nazis "when ze Nazis came" - he did itnso many times I was tempted to pipe up "what do you mean - "came?" You were here allready...

But the young Berlin tour guide wasn’t “there already”, and he has every right to distance himself from it all. Unless you believe in the sins of the fathers, etc.

Also, don’t forget that Mr H and his party‘s actions were aplauded by many a Nations elite (and the man on the Clapham omnibus), as “a good strong leader, willing to break the rules to get the job done”. Funnily enough, I was thinking about this exact thing early this morning, after listening yo the story of a Russian journalist who was executed for criticising Mr P.

The snag here is that WWII is really the outcome of WWI, and that had very little to do with the people of any country, but rather, the desire of the "elite" of those nations to go empire-building. Of course, the British empire was mainly acquired by an army with lots of Scottish soldiers, who just wanted to go somewhere warm .

Quite a reasonable summary, and never forget, Britain is the only Nation to have successfully commited genocide (Tasmania), so maybe we should keep in mind we are ALL quite capable of such acts to a greater or lesser degree. And as a Nation, most of us have.

 

[premmington]

Obviously not all Germans supported Hitler but the vast majority did. Crystalnacht was an horrific example of this.

I did this at school as an essay. 40+ years ago.

Kristallnacht had erupted as a spontaneous outburst of public sentiment in response to the assassination of Ernst vom Rath. Vom Rath was a German embassy official stationed in Paris.

Kristallnacht (the night of broken glass). Broken Jewish shop windows, torched Synagogues and vandalized Jewish homes

I had to google the womans name Vom Rath - I am old and my memory is going

 

[mrsbruce]

I did this at school as an essay. 40+ years ago.

Kristallnacht had erupted as a spontaneous outburst of public sentiment in response to the assassination of Ernst vom Rath. Vom Rath was a German embassy official stationed in Paris.

Kristallnacht (the night of broken glass). Broken Jewish shop windows, torched Synagogues and vandalized Jewish homes

A well organised “spontaneous outburst of public sentiment” by a lot of chaps randomly wearing the same shirts.

 

[500e]

I’d never given that much thought

It’s strange to think the luftwaffe did the same here as they were only protecting there country

As a older person I feel you and others have a loose grip on the history of WW11.
I lived through the bombing in Swansea (heavy) Reading (lighter) & Bristol I saw the devastation and was just old enough to remember air raid shelters.
We and Europe as a hole did not start the war, there is a saying What you plant so so shall you reap.
I find it totally bizarre that Russia should want to start another war after having 3Million killed in the last one.
We don't need to worry about global warming the lunatics will find a way to kill us all much quicker

 

[8ob]

It is nicely written. We did bad, you did bad and this is all that remains.

We did Dam bad as well.

Bob

 

[fizzy]

A well organised “spontaneous outburst of public sentiment” by a lot of chaps randomly wearing the same shirts.

Not just chaps!
Most of the damage was done by the civilian population. Whole families just turning on their neighbours.

 

[cheb]

Before it gets too smug and self satisfied how far do you think us plucky Brits are away from hating one particular group to the point of violence?

Abuse of BBC journalist was disgraceful, says Nicola Sturgeon

Independence supporters shouted insults including "traitor" and "scumbag rat" at Scotland editor James Cook.

www.bbc.co.uk

That referundum bought out the worst of tribalism too, civilisation is a very very thin veneer.

 

[mrsbruce]

Before it gets too smug and self satisfied how far do you think us plucky Brits are away from hating one particular group to the point of violence?

Abuse of BBC journalist was disgraceful, says Nicola Sturgeon

Independence supporters shouted insults including "traitor" and "scumbag rat" at Scotland editor James Cook.

www.bbc.co.uk

That referundum bought out the worst of tribalism too, civilisation is a very very thin veneer.

You are right, the veneer of civilisation is frighteningly thin, and as we become complacent with what is going on around us, it wears thinner, and there were a number of people proving that on both sides of that referendum.

Just look at some of the abuse folk post on social media right now, you wouldn’t think they were talking about fellow human beings. Nothing but abusive words and blatant hate, all tossed about with no thought if their impact on others.

Not just chaps!
Most of the damage was done by the civilian population. Whole families just turning on their neighbours.

Which is what happens when you blame others for your woes. Much easier to scapegoat, and lash out, but as that famous quote states “When they came for me….”.

Noam Chomsky put it perfectly.

 

[Rannsachair]

Before it gets too smug and self satisfied how far do you think us plucky Brits are away from hating one particular group to the point of violence?

Abuse of BBC journalist was disgraceful, says Nicola Sturgeon

Independence supporters shouted insults including "traitor" and "scumbag rat" at Scotland editor James Cook.

www.bbc.co.uk

That referundum bought out the worst of tribalism too, civilisation is a very very thin veneer.

Always been the same, some individuals cannot control themselves, I was a candidate a few times in the early 90's, I was spat on outside the polling station, had a dog set on me and all 4 tyres on car slashed on polling day outside a polling station ...and I am a Nationalist.

 

[cheb]

For any avoidance of doubt I used that link as it's the most recent, not from any political viewpoint

 

[mike os]

If the Germans had won concentration camps would still exist - doesn't bear thinking about.

probably not... they wouldnt need them any more

 

[mrsbruce]

For any avoidance of doubt I used that link as it's the most recent, not from any political viewpoint

Sadly, such abuse seems to be common, especially from people who confuse opinion with fact. When your ‘leaders’ use abuse or outright lies instead of facts or truth to ‘answer’ your questions, take a long hard look at yourself, and ask yoyrself why you voted for them. Don’t wait for it to turn into an historical discussion.

And remember, these words of wisdom come from a wee 62 year old woman who has never been “asleep” to become “woke” from.
(Disclaimer - all views are my own, and only backed by a trivial, and annoying allegiance to the truth.

 

[mike os]

Thatcher (whose 10 feet tall bronze statue is rumoured to sit in a side street in an obscure market town rather than Parliament Square), won three elections, but it would be incorrect to say that (then or now) all Britains were Thatcherites. Blair repeatedly won elections and then invaded Iraq, but many/most Britains were against it. Some believe he is a war criminal. Hitler got elected by a part of the German population (no Nazi candidate ever won an election in any part of Berlin), just like Thatcher and Blair... as did all the fabulous subsequent Prime Ministers, whom we so much admire!

just like everyone now blames Putin... not the russian government, russian populace and russian military...

 

[redlig]

I seem to recall from school history lessons that the Germans were trying to conquer the world, so how exactly does them bombing the snot out of London, and other major cities, become 'protecting there country'

I thought that intensive bombing of the non combatants was to break the will of the population to resist thus reducing the retaliation . 'Luckily' it had the opposite effect.

 

[selectedgrub]

Those Germans, they make a great grinder.