Energy prices.

[J1nx]

Tax per mile, they will include all vehicles to maintain the tax benefit of EV, Diesels will pay all of it, it’s full on war for the government/greens.

 

[Munkul]

According to this it's definitely not horribly inefficient. 80% transfer efficiency from renewable electricity (wind, solar or hydro) to hydrogen with modern electrolysis plants. That's definitely viable.
The raw energy and the water is free too..

Hydrogen made by the electrolysis of water is now cost-competitive and gives us another building block for the low-carbon economy | Carbon Commentary

96 Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE

www.carboncommentary.com

It's not horribly inefficient, but it's not done often on a commercial scale because it's vastly cheaper to steam-reform methane than it is to generate the same amount from electrolysis.
Up to recently, anyways when gas spiked to crazy levels
The article headline and conclusions are based on the author's ideal facts and not based around the primary driver for industry (profit/loss)
The other thing that article fails to mention is that the CO2 produced in reforming is generally captured and used/sold on as a raw material in other industries. It's far too valuable to release to the air, and in Europe/UK the carbon credits scheme would make dumping it utterly prohibitive.

 

[brewdexta]

I’ll just leave this here ….https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills

its good you can just leave that there, they aren't radioactive

 

[AVI_8]

There was an article this morning regarding gas prices saying the reason we’re going to be paying huge prices next winter is because the suppliers have already hedged next winters supply at a price likely much higher than it’ll cost.
And higher that it is even now.

 

[atomant48]

There was an article this morning regarding gas prices saying the reason we’re going to be paying huge prices next winter is because the suppliers have already hedged next winters supply at a price likely much higher than it’ll cost.
And higher that it is even now.

I read that too. Wondering if it’s the same in the financial area - like when you fix your mortgage and rates go up. Is it how big corporations run ??

 

[fizzy]

Tax per mile, they will include all vehicles to maintain the tax benefit of EV, Diesels will pay all of it, it’s full on war for the government/greens.

Yup sadly I think you are right.

 

[500e]

Norwegian EV policy

elbil.no

2022 = 83.7 % EV or hydrogen
5.3mil People
2.81 mil Cars
Work out revenue loss to Gov in the UK

Norway Is Running Out of Gas-Guzzling Cars to Tax

The oil producing nation is learning what happens after a country fills its roads with electric vehicles.

www.wired.com

So more expensive car electric going up inflation at **** %
How do Gov claw back revenue, the only way I see is road/miles pricing, so people living in country arias with poor or no public transport (which does not stack up and cant cover the ground anyway) are the losers

 

[J1nx]

How do Gov claw back revenue, the only way I see is road/miles pricing, so people living in country arias with poor or no public transport (which does not stack up and cant cover the ground anyway) are the losers

I’d like to think that roads will be priced in a somewhat balanced way, I’m mean there is no way to please everyone (although they might displease everyone), but rural roads would be charged at a fraction of city roads.

 

[Gwil]

For anyone with some land solar arrays are so cheap now even with UK weather it must be worth it? I've only got 1.6kw at the moment but a 5kw addition-
less than 3000 euros if I put it up- would give me free driving in a modest EV.

 

[brewdexta]

For anyone with some land solar arrays are so cheap now even with UK weather it must be worth it? I've only got 1.6kw at the moment but a 5kw addition-
less than 3000 euros if I put it up- would give me free driving in a modest EV.

I'm thinking about putting an 8kw array in our field adjacent to the house, I have a steep banking that can't be used for much other than very agile sheep/goat grazing. I'll need to check planning.

EDIT - looks like up to 9m2 without planning in the field, so about 4 or 5 full size panels, so circa 2kw. I'll have a think.

 

[reb78]

I have some substantial sheds with one side of the roof south facing. What's the max you could install on a domestic system? I have 3 phase with 35mm2 tails to the sheds if that makes any difference on what I can send back to the meter end at all? Failing that, I have a disused 10mm2 connection that goes back from the shed to the house (used to be the main workshed supply but was terminated and left in place when the 3 phase went in). I don't even know where to start (as you can tell) with even thinking about solar so have no idea if its completely cost prohibitive or actually feasible. Is there a good place to start to read up on it?

 

[Gareth J]

I have some substantial sheds with one side of the roof south facing. What's the max you could install on a domestic system? I have 3 phase with 35mm2 tails to the sheds if that makes any difference on what I can send back to the meter end at all? Failing that, I have a disused 10mm2 connection that goes back from the shed to the house (used to be the main workshed supply but was terminated and left in place when the 3 phase went in). I don't even know where to start (as you can tell) with even thinking about solar so have no idea if its completely cost prohibitive or actually feasible. Is there a good place to start to read up on it?

Ask your DNO what they'll let you connect. It's been a while since I last did it and I think the process has altered. But should be a process available online.

As a minimum, I think, it should be 3.68kW per phase.

 

[Mr Fro]

Got a link for a reference? Or can you explain with a back of envelope calculation? Don't mind being wrong.

I'll send you something when I've dug it out.

 

[J1nx]

For anyone with some land solar arrays are so cheap now even with UK weather it must be worth it? I've only got 1.6kw at the moment but a 5kw addition-
less than 3000 euros if I put it up- would give me free driving in a modest EV.

Where are people buying these solar PV panels (let alone cheap), seems to be slim pickings down here in the south west on eBay!

 

[S-Rail]

Anything to do with government and computers is fraught with danger, there is already talk of speed limits by satalite direct to vehicles so billing for miles could be next step, see what Norway are going to do they have high EV take up

And funnily enough they just brought in a bunch of new laws regarding vehicle mods , of which included an Anti-Tampering” section , can see how that is needed when some clever wiz will work out how to reprogram cars to show less miles …

20 years when some people said about the whole Big Brother thing , others laughed …..

 

[willie.macleod]

I worked it out recently that a Tesla model S which is the most efficient electric car available works out about the same as running a normal diesel car at around 45mpg - taking all fuel taxes out of the equation.
Electric cars seem cheap because you aren't paying tax - yet!

The Tesla model S certainly isn't the most efficient electric car available - 3.9 miles per kWh, I got better figures in my old Leaf today! Much depends on how you drive the car. Hyundai seem to be able to turn out cars that can realistically do closer to 5 miles per kWh.

A kWh of electricity is around 30p, so fuel costs for model S comes in around 8p a mile.

Diesel here is £1.80 a litre or thereabouts, so £1.80*4.55=£8.19 a gallon. Divide that by 0.08 and you need a diesel car that can do over a hundred miles to the gallon to come close to equalising the fuel cost of the electric option.

Now, if you filled up on rapid chargers at 60p/kWh I can understand how the numbers are a lot closer but why make things worse than they are? Folk only use the expensive charging options where they have to and take the minimum they need to get home/to a cheaper option. I can fill up at the nearest rapid for 25p/kWh and if you are a heavy user you will go onto a economy 7 tariff or similar and charge off peak at lower costs still.

If taxes go up on electric cars (which they inevitably will) then it is likely to be some form of pay per mile charges which might as well be implemented for all road users such as in congestion schemes. Too easy for the general public to capture their own using solar/wind or transfer it through unmetered means. The cost of electricity cannot go up much more as we are so dependant on electricity for so much in the way of cooking/heating/lighting and the move away from gas to electric will only be slowed down if electricity skyrockets again.

My 100mpg 125cc motorbike is not as efficient as my Leaf - it uses more energy (44kWh) to travel 100 miles although it turns a large amount of that stored energy into heat and noise. If my Leaf can travel the same distance using 30kWh carrying 4 passengers and cargo with fewer emissions then why should it be taxed more? I already pay a fortune to HMRC per month including road taxes for multiple petrol and diesel vehicles. I'd be upset if my newest and cleanest vehicle cost the most to run - electric cars need to drop in price and running costs have to be affordable or we will end up with a situation in a few years where those in the lower income brackets are simply priced out of their cars. That would be a disaster in so many ways and decimate rural communities further.

 

[daleyd]

The Tesla model S certainly isn't the most efficient electric car available - 3.9 miles per kWh, I got better figures in my old Leaf today! Much depends on how you drive the car. Hyundai seem to be able to turn out cars that can realistically do closer to 5 miles per kWh.

A kWh of electricity is around 30p, so fuel costs for model S comes in around 8p a mile.

Diesel here is £1.80 a litre or thereabouts, so £1.80*4.55=£8.19 a gallon. Divide that by 0.08 and you need a diesel car that can do over a hundred miles to the gallon to come close to equalising the fuel cost of the electric option.

Now, if you filled up on rapid chargers at 60p/kWh I can understand how the numbers are a lot closer but why make things worse than they are? Folk only use the expensive charging options where they have to and take the minimum they need to get home/to a cheaper option. I can fill up at the nearest rapid for 25p/kWh and if you are a heavy user you will go onto a economy 7 tariff or similar and charge off peak at lower costs still.

If taxes go up on electric cars (which they inevitably will) then it is likely to be some form of pay per mile charges which might as well be implemented for all road users such as in congestion schemes. Too easy for the general public to capture their own using solar/wind or transfer it through unmetered means. The cost of electricity cannot go up much more as we are so dependant on electricity for so much in the way of cooking/heating/lighting and the move away from gas to electric will only be slowed down if electricity skyrockets again.

My 100mpg 125cc motorbike is not as efficient as my Leaf - it uses more energy (44kWh) to travel 100 miles although it turns a large amount of that stored energy into heat and noise. If my Leaf can travel the same distance using 30kWh carrying 4 passengers and cargo with fewer emissions then why should it be taxed more? I already pay a fortune to HMRC per month including road taxes for multiple petrol and diesel vehicles. I'd be upset if my newest and cleanest vehicle cost the most to run - electric cars need to drop in price and running costs have to be affordable or we will end up with a situation in a few years where those in the lower income brackets are simply priced out of their cars. That would be a disaster in so many ways and decimate rural communities further.

I think what he did was took all the taxes off the fuel (though not the circa 18% green levy and VAT you pay on electric , which should have been done to make it fair) and worked out it would be equivalent to 40 odd mpg, but purely on price - though on pure energy input as you say most calculations seem to suggest EVs are in the hundred odd mpg equivalent range.

 

[willie.macleod]

That's not entirely accurate.

If you factor in electricity generation and charging losses (except when charging with an idealised charger), the power used to move an EV and a hybrid diesel vehicle a unit distance is much the same.

There are theoretical circumstances in which a hybrid diesel is more efficient than an EV, for instance when utilising regenerative braking in city driving or exhaust gas recovery during sustained high speed driving.

If we take my situation, the energy used by my electric car is coming from three 0.9MW wind turbines a mile away. Where's the diesel and petrol coming from that I fill up other vehicles with? Where was it drilled? Where was it refined? The journey alone to get it to my tank from the hole in the ground is mind boggling. Remember I can reclaim 10% of my energy through regeneration. In town drivers will have a far higher % regen.

Those turbines alone are producing more than enough energy for the local area. We have far more generation capacity here than we can use and they keep spinning as we are a suitable windy location. Charging and grid transmission losses are there, but nothing compared to what you are talking about drilling/refining/shipping oil. The whole idea that a diesel vehicle comes close to an EV in efficiency in a whole picture scenario is one that I find hard to believe. Think of all that energy lost due to heat in your diesel engine - more than 50%? Burn it in an CHP station and use that heat wisely and efficiently. Use the electricity to power the car.

We need better control of the grid for managing increased levels of EVs, once we properly integrate V2G and remote switching of chargers we can improve grid efficiency and load balancing. Enable users to set their own charging preferences based on time of charge/grid capacity/desired range etc.

 

[premmington]

The Tesla model S certainly isn't the most efficient electric car available - 3.9 miles per kWh, I got better figures in my old Leaf today! Much depends on how you drive the car. Hyundai seem to be able to turn out cars that can realistically do closer to 5 miles per kWh.

A kWh of electricity is around 30p, so fuel costs for model S comes in around 8p a mile.

Diesel here is £1.80 a litre or thereabouts, so £1.80*4.55=£8.19 a gallon. Divide that by 0.08 and you need a diesel car that can do over a hundred miles to the gallon to come close to equalising the fuel cost of the electric option.

Now, if you filled up on rapid chargers at 60p/kWh I can understand how the numbers are a lot closer but why make things worse than they are? Folk only use the expensive charging options where they have to and take the minimum they need to get home/to a cheaper option. I can fill up at the nearest rapid for 25p/kWh and if you are a heavy user you will go onto a economy 7 tariff or similar and charge off peak at lower costs still.

If taxes go up on electric cars (which they inevitably will) then it is likely to be some form of pay per mile charges which might as well be implemented for all road users such as in congestion schemes. Too easy for the general public to capture their own using solar/wind or transfer it through unmetered means. The cost of electricity cannot go up much more as we are so dependant on electricity for so much in the way of cooking/heating/lighting and the move away from gas to electric will only be slowed down if electricity skyrockets again.

My 100mpg 125cc motorbike is not as efficient as my Leaf - it uses more energy (44kWh) to travel 100 miles although it turns a large amount of that stored energy into heat and noise. If my Leaf can travel the same distance using 30kWh carrying 4 passengers and cargo with fewer emissions then why should it be taxed more? I already pay a fortune to HMRC per month including road taxes for multiple petrol and diesel vehicles. I'd be upset if my newest and cleanest vehicle cost the most to run - electric cars need to drop in price and running costs have to be affordable or we will end up with a situation in a few years where those in the lower income brackets are simply priced out of their cars. That would be a disaster in so many ways and decimate rural communities further.

Your quote "My 100mpg 125cc motorbike is not as efficient as my Leaf".

I got a 108cc Honda AFS110 wave. Really shocked me the above.

I don't disbelieve you - but I would have never have thought that.

 

[Mr Fro]

If we take my situation, the energy used by my electric car is coming from three 0.9MW wind turbines a mile away. Where's the diesel and petrol coming from that I fill up other vehicles with? Where was it drilled? Where was it refined? The journey alone to get it to my tank from the hole in the ground is mind boggling. Remember I can reclaim 10% of my energy through regeneration. In town drivers will have a far higher % regen.

Those turbines alone are producing more than enough energy for the local area. We have far more generation capacity here than we can use and they keep spinning as we are a suitable windy location. Charging and grid transmission losses are there, but nothing compared to what you are talking about drilling/refining/shipping oil. The whole idea that a diesel vehicle comes close to an EV in efficiency in a whole picture scenario is one that I find hard to believe. Think of all that energy lost due to heat in your diesel engine - more than 50%? Burn it in an CHP station and use that heat wisely and efficiently. Use the electricity to power the car.

We need better control of the grid for managing increased levels of EVs, once we properly integrate V2G and remote switching of chargers we can improve grid efficiency and load balancing. Enable users to set their own charging preferences based on time of charge/grid capacity/desired range etc.

As you state, if we all have our own renewable source of electricity then EV is a clear winner.

Unfortunately we do not and the majority of the electricity in the UK is derived from fossil fuel. There's an illustrative graph somewhere in this thread.

From memory, UK generation is on average around 50% efficient at converting the energy from the prime source (fossil, biomass, hydro, nuclear etc) to electrical energy once losses are accounted for. These data are readily available at the gov.uk website.

EV charging efficiency is on average 78% (from memory). This figure is below the efficiency figures published by car manufacturers because the majority of people don't have access to the idealised charger used during the manufacturer's test procedure (surprise). Again, there are plenty of peer reviewed documents available.

A high efficiency diesel engined car can convert 40 - 45% of the energy in the fuel to motive power so as you will appreciate, it's not a huge jump to the ~50% efficiency of UK electricity generation.

The theoretical case I alluded to earlier was from an offshoot of a piece of research I conducted to show the benefits of EV over ICE. My expectation was to demonstrate the inefficiencies of ICE when compared to EV but the data analysis proved otherwise. This led me to model the effect of exhaust energy recovery and/or regenerative braking using the WLTP as a modelling tool. The result was that a high efficiency diesel engined car could be slightly more efficient in certain scenarios than the average EV when equipped with waste energy capture technology.

The argument around having to dig up/extract/refine petrol and diesel is somewhat nullified by the UK electricity generation being heavily dependent on fossil fuel. The extra penalty of refinement and transportation to the filling station is pretty much lost in the noise.