Energy prices.

[Kayos]

@fizzy seriously, there are options other than nuclear

I agree we need more for the baseload, but it is far from the perfect it ideal solution

The UK is building the biggest offshore wind farms in the world, with private investment, not govt funding or subsidies.
That means big business has other ideas

 

[Gareth J]

People will not cut their energy consumption and hence their standard of living.
Britain had the World's first commercial nuclear power station. Over the last 30 years we turned our back on nuclear and that is why we are in this mess now. France is the only major country that gets most of it's power from nuclear AND they put out far less CO2 than any other country.
The sooner the Rolls Royce SMRs are up and running the better.

Not strictly true, people *have* cut their energy usage. Look at the top line of the chart.

Things like EVs, heat pumps and better insulated homes (all use less energy for the same level of work/comfort) will help drive down the top line further but crumbs it's s long way to go.

 

[fizzy]

@fizzy seriously, there are options other than nuclear

I agree we need more for the baseload, but it is far from the perfect it ideal solution

The UK is building the biggest offshore wind farms in the world, with private investment, not govt funding or subsidies.
That means big business has other ideas

What is the point in more wind power?
We are in this mess because very often the wind doesn't blow and we use 60% gas.
Even having 10x more windfarms won't help when there is a 2 week lull.
IF there was an efficient means of storing all this energy I would welcome it with open arms. But there isn't!

 

[fizzy]

Not strictly true, people *have* cut their energy usage. Look at the top line of the chart.

Things like EVs, heat pumps and better insulated homes (all use less energy for the same level of work/comfort) will help drive down the top line further but crumbs it's s long way to go.

And then we get more and more electric cars which doubles the demand on the grid.

 

[fizzy]

As to the profitability of wind farms big companies are starting to have doubts.
They put in low strike bids to get the projects but it looks like the bids were too low.

World's largest offshore wind farm 'unprofitable' for Equinor, say government-funded researchers

New Norwegian study challenges Equinor's profitability from the world largest offshore wind project under construction, located in the UK North Sea

www.upstreamonline.com

 

[Gareth J]

And then we get more and more electric cars which doubles the demand on the grid

Sure. Will it be a problem? Maybe, but it's not like it's unforseeable. Or going to happen overnight. I strongly suspect that the fears many have of EVs causing nightmares with the grid will come to nought.

In fact, the fact that EVs have a giant battery on board is likely to aid grid stability. I have decided that, when V2H technology is available here (currently common in Japan apparently) this will be the time for me to reassess if an EV can work for us.

The fact that an EV uses, overall, significantly fewer kWh to travel a mile is relevant here too.

 

[Kayos]

What is the point in more wind power?
We are in this mess because very often the wind doesn't blow and we use 60% gas.
Even having 10x more windfarms won't help when there is a 2 week lull.
IF there was an efficient means of storing all this energy I would welcome it with open arms. But there isn't!

Are you talking onshore or offshore?

I'm sure the investors spending billions may have a bit more info than you? I'm fairly sure they don't get theirs from the daily mail

 

[charlysays]

What is the point in more wind power?
We are in this mess because very often the wind doesn't blow and we use 60% gas.
Even having 10x more windfarms won't help when there is a 2 week lull.
IF there was an efficient means of storing all this energy I would welcome it with open arms. But there isn't!

Surely splitting hydrogen out of rain or sea water (can't remember the name of the process) would be the best way to store excess wind or solar energy? IIRC it's a process which should be fairly effective, you get out what you put in.

I think every house should have solar PV and solar thermal panels, proper insulation. Would make a big difference. A thoroughly insulated house needs minimal heating even in winter.

 

[gaz1]

View attachment 345373

that is wrong maker you forgot to add in fumes deaths from cars and lorrys makes a bigger difference to the numbers of the oil numbers

infact the emmisions is incorrect by a long shot factor in materials to build the thing in the first place and evrything changes

This is in addition to the World Health Organisation’s estimate of 3.7 million deaths caused by outdoor air pollution.

The US scientists argue that there is too little awareness of the impact of “real world” vehicle air pollution.

 

[Mr Fro]

The fact that an EV uses, overall, significantly fewer kWh to travel a mile is relevant here too.

That's not entirely accurate.

If you factor in electricity generation and charging losses (except when charging with an idealised charger), the power used to move an EV and a hybrid diesel vehicle a unit distance is much the same.

There are theoretical circumstances in which a hybrid diesel is more efficient than an EV, for instance when utilising regenerative braking in city driving or exhaust gas recovery during sustained high speed driving.

 

[fizzy]

Are you talking onshore or offshore?

I'm sure the investors spending billions may have a bit more info than you? I'm fairly sure they don't get theirs from the daily mail

That report was not from the Daily Mail

 

[fizzy]

Surely splitting hydrogen out of rain or sea water (can't remember the name of the process) would be the best way to store excess wind or solar energy? IIRC it's a process which should be fairly effective, you get out what you put in.

I think every house should have solar PV and solar thermal panels, proper insulation. Would make a big difference. A thoroughly insulated house needs minimal heating even in winter.

Sadly using electricity to make hydrogen is horribly inefficient. Worse than battery storage even.
I would love to run a car on hydrogen. You could have a nice clean 5L V8

 

[charlysays]

Sadly using electricity to make hydrogen is horribly inefficient. Worse than battery storage even.
I would love to run a car on hydrogen. You could have a nice clean 5L V8

According to this it's definitely not horribly inefficient. 80% transfer efficiency from renewable electricity (wind, solar or hydro) to hydrogen with modern electrolysis plants. That's definitely viable.
The raw energy and the water is free too..

Hydrogen made by the electrolysis of water is now cost-competitive and gives us another building block for the low-carbon economy | Carbon Commentary

96 Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE

www.carboncommentary.com

I would love to run my Scimitar on hydrogen too. But at this rate it'll have a Mercedes om605 shoehorned in and be run on recycled chip fat like my daily.

 

[Gareth J]

That's not entirely accurate.

If you factor in electricity generation and charging losses (except when charging with an idealised charger), the power used to move an EV and a hybrid diesel vehicle a unit distance is much the same.

There are theoretical circumstances in which a hybrid diesel is more efficient than an EV, for instance when utilising regenerative braking in city driving or exhaust gas recovery during sustained high speed driving.

My understanding was that, due to the relatively high (energy) cost of getting hydrocarbon fuel from the ground into cars coupled with the generally more efficient nature of the kWh used in the EV, the EV wins every time. Do you know if the energy cost of the hybrid diesel in your example takes into account the kWh of getting the fuel into the diesel tank? You rightly mention the inefficiencies associated with generating and charging an EV but also should include the same with the diesel...

 

[Mr Fro]

My understanding was that, due to the relatively high (energy) cost of getting hydrocarbon fuel from the ground into cars coupled with the generally more efficient nature of the kWh used in the EV, the EV wins every time. Do you know if the energy cost of the hybrid diesel in your example takes into account the kWh of getting the fuel into the diesel tank? You rightly mention the inefficiencies associated with generating and charging an EV but also should include the same with the diesel...

If you take the current UK generation stock then yes, the idealised diesel hybrid pips the current average EV in terms of energy consumed per unit distance.

However, I think that if we look at electricity generation in the round then renewable technologies such as solar and wind are likely to have similar energy and possibly carbon footprints as fossil and nuclear. I have no data to prove that, nor have I done any research in to it, it's just a thought so I'm happy to be proved wrong.

If (if) the collective brain power of the human race can conjure up a method of extracting energy from something that doesn't involve hideous amounts of energy and emissions to manufacture and which has a service life of more than a decade or so then yes absolutely, EV all the way.

 

[Gareth J]

If you take the current UK generation stock then yes, the idealised diesel hybrid pips the current average EV in terms of energy consumed per unit distance.

Got a link for a reference? Or can you explain with a back of envelope calculation? Don't mind being wrong.

 

[fizzy]

According to this it's definitely not horribly inefficient. 80% transfer efficiency from renewable electricity (wind, solar or hydro) to hydrogen with modern electrolysis plants. That's definitely viable.
The raw energy and the water is free too..

Hydrogen made by the electrolysis of water is now cost-competitive and gives us another building block for the low-carbon economy | Carbon Commentary

96 Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE

www.carboncommentary.com

I would love to run my Scimitar on hydrogen too. But at this rate it'll have a Mercedes om605 shoehorned in and be run on recycled chip fat like my daily.

Interesting article.
But basically 80% means you still have to use more energy in than out.
Then you have to compress or liquify it and then transport the stuff.
Electric from a nuclear power station just flows through the grid to where it is needed,

 

[fizzy]

Got a link for a reference? Or can you explain with a back of envelope calculation? Don't mind being wrong.

I worked it out recently that a Tesla model S which is the most efficient electric car available works out about the same as running a normal diesel car at around 45mpg - taking all fuel taxes out of the equation.
Electric cars seem cheap because you aren't paying tax - yet!

 

[S-Rail]

I’ll just leave this here ….https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills

 

[Gareth J]

I worked it out recently that a Tesla model S which is the most efficient electric car available works out about the same as running a normal diesel car at around 45mpg - taking all fuel taxes out of the equation.
Electric cars seem cheap because you aren't paying tax - yet!

I'm not asking about monetary cost but total energy used. And ensuring the "well to tank" energy is taken into account as well as the "tank to wheel" energy.

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That's focussing on CO2, but its related and explains WTT, WTW, TTW.

Yes, electricity is expensive compared to fossil fuels minus road tax. But we don't live in a country that doesn't tax road fuel. I also can't generate a road fuel that's indistinguishable from government sanctioned road fuel either.