H&S training courses to use metalworking machinery

[Pete.]

But education qualifications experience and training don't always lead to someone being competent.
The training and qualifications industry in this country has long since taken its eye off the goal. And instead just become another money spinner

They should if done properly because it's the legal definition.

One of the better ways to achieve education, experience and training (IMO) is via mentoring. That allows a person to learn a wide variety of the aspects of their job, in the workplace setting, whilst being constantly supervised. It also allows a staged path to qualification via assessments (normally NVQ in my industry). That's why the training industry is seen as box-ticking because it's only one of the four steps that lead to competency but the only one that many employers think they need to satisfy. All it does is produce documentary evidence that a person has been told something once.

That option is not open to the OP obviously. I don't know what the answer is for him.

 

[8ob]

We have quite a few lads here carrying the same qualifications and they are all on a vastly different wage to each other.That`s the difference between qualified and experienced.

Bob

 

[mtt.tr]

We have quite a few lads here carrying the same qualifications and they are all on a vastly different wage to each other.That`s the difference between qualified and experienced.

Bob

I never bothered to take my climbing and rigging tickets I was put of when I saw the low ability levels of guys with full tickets.

 

[Keith 66]

When i started as a technician in education 19 years ago i had to do Design & technology association (Data) courses on every machine in the workshop, updated every 5 years. The lathe course was largely practical & was two days on its own. Most of us were already quite experienced on a lathe
Today the lathe course consists of ticking boxes on a sheet to show that you have heard & seen the instructor telling you how its done, the total time will be a couple of hours at the outside.
Yet this bit of paper allows someone with no prior experience of such machines to instruct kids in a school or college. Basically its an ass covering excercise!

 

[Parm]

They should if done properly because it's the legal definition.

One of the better ways to achieve education, experience and training (IMO) is via mentoring. That allows a person to learn a wide variety of the aspects of their job, in the workplace setting, whilst being constantly supervised. It also allows a staged path to qualification via assessments (normally NVQ in my industry). That's why the training industry is seen as box-ticking because it's only one of the four steps that lead to competency but the only one that many employers think they need to satisfy. All it does is produce documentary evidence that a person has been told something once.

That option is not open to the OP obviously. I don't know what the answer is for him.

Thanks @Pete.

Correct on legal definition and mentoring, you know your beans

 

[8ob]

I never bothered to take my climbing and rigging tickets I was put of when I saw the low ability levels of guys with full tickets.

We can't employ climbers or chainsaw oppo`s without tickets but we do only consider whatever qualifications they do have as a minimum base line. Merrest wood ag college churn out fully ticketed greenhorns like a machine, most of them would be two or three years down the road before they showed any level of useable competence.

Bob

 

[Parm]

Competency is a big feature of the work I'm doing. I'm in the middle of a big intervention. In my opinion they are incompetent and put persons at risk of significant injury due to their misleading advice. Most of my work usual ends with a prohibition notice

They claim they have all been trained, digging a bit deeper i find that the training has consisted of giving everyone stuff to read. Training is when you have an experienced person, often independently assessed to be competent that delivers a programme of works and is able to answer deep technical ideas and knowledge.

We recognise this as a big problem in the very specific sector i work in so we have produced guidance on competency and required level of supervision. Going further we are in the middle of creating a registration scheme where an individual will be assessed against set criteria to determine level of competency. Once this has been up and running for a year or so we are going for protected status so the job title will be protected in law the same as doctor, dentist, optician etc

 

[Kayos]

I have leaned towards h and s qualifications in recent years, in my last role I used them as a bit of a stick to get things changed, it worked for the better.

My current role is in a huge corporation, the SHE team is probably bigger than the whole of my previous company, they very much like my qualifications however they like my real world experience more

It all comes down to attitudes, many will not care and simply "do it the way they always have"

 

[8ob]

Competency is a big feature of the work I'm doing.

We recognise this as a big problem in the very specific sector i work in so we have produced guidance on competency and required level of supervision. Going further we are in the middle of creating a registration scheme where an individual will be assessed against set criteria to determine level of competency. Once this has been up and running for a year or so we are going for protected status so the job title will be protected in law the same as doctor, dentist, optician etc

The only way to achieve this is to go back fifty years and bring back the time served apprenticeship schemes and stop all these Mickey Mouse courses/assessments. In years gone by the college work/exam results were of no value until your employer signed off your indentures.

Bob

 

[Parm]

The only way to achieve this is to go back fifty years and bring back the time served apprenticeship schemes and stop all these Mickey Mouse courses/assessments. In years gone by the college work/exam results were of no value until your employer signed off your indentures.

Bob

Thats one possible way but unfortunately apprenticeships seem to be thin on the ground, some new thinking required

 

[Agrismith]

They should if done properly because it's the legal definition.

One of the better ways to achieve education, experience and training (IMO) is via mentoring. That allows a person to learn a wide variety of the aspects of their job, in the workplace setting, whilst being constantly supervised. It also allows a staged path to qualification via assessments (normally NVQ in my industry). That's why the training industry is seen as box-ticking because it's only one of the four steps that lead to competency but the only one that many employers think they need to satisfy. All it does is produce documentary evidence that a person has been told something once.

That option is not open to the OP obviously. I don't know what the answer is for him.

It may well be the legal definition. But go on any building site going and you can see people with years of experience. Loads of training and every certificate going. Yet still not any good at the job leading through to be downright dangerous. You simply cannot account for how inventively stupid the human race can be. You never will be able to.

 

[Agrismith]

The only way to achieve this is to go back fifty years and bring back the time served apprenticeship schemes and stop all these Mickey Mouse courses/assessments. In years gone by the college work/exam results were of no value until your employer signed off your indentures.

Bob

What it really needs is every tradesperson to hold a digital portfolio signed of by management level. Therefore anyone can teach anyone anything at anytime and it's all recorded. And can be compared at anytime to industry standards

 

[Parm]

industry standards

This is a good point, what is the industry standard benchmark for say a plumper, bricklayer, carpenter etc etc etc ?

The only one im aware of is Gas Safe

 

[Agrismith]

This is a good point, what is the industry standard benchmark for say a plumper, bricklayer, carpenter etc etc etc ?

The only one im aware of is Gas Safe

There are industry standards for everything. Gas Safe isn't an industry standard. It's a training and registration provider. The only difference is its compulsory whereas nptc cpcs and lantra aren't.

 

[Parm]

There are industry standards for everything. Gas Safe isn't an industry standard. It's a training and registration provider. The only difference is its compulsory whereas nptc cpcs and lantra aren't.

Point me towards the industry standard for competency in being a carpenter for example.

Genuine question as i don't know

 

[Agrismith]

Point me towards the industry standard for competency in being a carpenter for example.

Genuine question as i don't know

I never said industry standard for competency I said industry standards. Which means for the work they carry out. For carpentry the work has to either follow a British standard or a eurocode. If it doesn't meet one of them it's deemed to be unsafe. Brickwork is the same.

 

[Robotstar5]

The only way to achieve this is to go back fifty years and bring back the time served apprenticeship schemes and stop all these Mickey Mouse courses/assessments. In years gone by the college work/exam results were of no value until your employer signed off your indentures.

Bob

That's what I did in the 70's, it took me 4 years, now you can do a 5 week course and become an "electrician"

 

[Munkul]

Point me towards the industry standard for competency in being a carpenter for example.

Genuine question as i don't know

There isn't.

I find it incredible that a carpenter can whack a wooden staircase together and be passed off by building control (as long as it conforms functionally to building regs) yet I can't do the same in steel unless I have been independently assessed by an EN 1090 notified body, weld procedures, design specs, etc etc.

 

[Parm]

There isn't.

I find it incredible that a carpenter can whack a wooden staircase together and be passed off by building control (as long as it conforms functionally to building regs) yet I can't do the same in steel unless I have been independently assessed by an EN 1090 notified body, weld procedures, design specs, etc etc.

This is what i suspected

 

[willie.macleod]

@tigdlo NVQ/SVQs are what you might want to look at. A common turning unit that many folk who have to use a lathe in the course of their work here in Scotland will have completed is "Preparing and using Lathes for Turning Operations". The companion course for milling machines "Preparing and using Milling Machines". These units are part of the Performing Engineering Operations range and as they're part of the National Occupational Standards they aren't just a box ticking exercise - to get the bit of paper you have to demonstrate your competence and they aren't company dependant. They demonstrate compliance to a national standard - https://www.ukstandards.org.uk

Speak to your local college engineering department and see if they have any options open for you, I know that here they are willing to take mature students for single units and put them in with NC pupils during workshop sessions for a token fee.