Serious question regarding PCB (Polychlorinated biphenyls) not Printed Circuit Boards

[DSR]

The regs and rules are quite tight on these now and I want to test some oil in my welder (I'm pretty certain it is oil but want confirmation). Has anybody got a recommendation/supplier that will test the oil for a reasonable price i.e. under about £30.00. I've done some digging and am having trouble finding a one off tester - they all seem to want a commercial contract to test a whole site / plant or a shed load of cash because they test for PCB's, acidity, water, dead aliens etc.....

I did find a Clor-n-Oil test kit which you can do yourself, but thought I'd ask the forum first.

D

 

[Jack Ryan]

Hi D,

I'm sorry I can't answer your question but I am curious to know how PCBs were used in welders. Was it as a transformer coolant or a capacitor dielectric - or both?

Thanks and good luck - OH&S testing is often a lucrative occupation and there is much more fruit in an industry setting than in an individual welder.

Jack

 

[Parm]

The regs and rules are quite tight on these now and I want to test some oil in my welder (I'm pretty certain it is oil but want confirmation). Has anybody got a recommendation/supplier that will test the oil for a reasonable price i.e. under about £30.00. I've done some digging and am having trouble finding a one off tester - they all seem to want a commercial contract to test a whole site / plant or a shed load of cash because they test for PCB's, acidity, water, dead aliens etc.....

I did find a Clor-n-Oil test kit which you can do yourself, but thought I'd ask the forum first.

D

I used to work for a big environmental consultancy with very well respected analytical laboratory

For a single sample analysed by a competent laboratory using a recognised method you will be around £500 mark for analysis for PCB. Anything extra will be more money

Now the million dollar question, why are you wanting this testing ?

What is it you are trying to establish ?

 

[Munkul]

What welder is it? Is there any labels on it relating to oil? A lot of them were supposed to be filled with Shell Diala B which contained no PCBs.

 

[DSR]

I used to work for a big environmental consultancy with very well respected analytical laboratory

For a single sample analysed by a competent laboratory using a recognised method you will be around £500 mark for analysis for PCB. Anything extra will be more money

Now the million dollar question, why are you wanting this testing ?

To satisfy my curiosity.

What is it you are trying to establish ?

Currently, the oil is sat ready to be filtered and poured back in to the welder, there isn't enough oil so it will have to be topped up, if it's PCB based, I will dispose of it and fill with new oil, if it's proper oil, I will just top up with the required amount of oil.


D

 

[Cuthy246]

As @Parm has said PCB testing is not cheap. It really depends on what you want as a result, do you want to know if it is there at all or do you want to know how much is there if present?. A lab will be able to tell you the exact amount present in ppm and which specific pcbs are present if any. If you just want to know if they are there or not then the kit is your best bet.

 

[Parm]

They are never filled with PCBs

PCBs happen in the oil through years of having electricity around them

Its a very safe bet to assume that any electrical device immersed in oil, the oil will be contaminated with PCBs

 

[DSR]

What welder is it? Is there any labels on it relating to oil? A lot of them were supposed to be filled with Shell Diala B which contained no PCBs.

It's a Cytringan Bantam 'Oil Cooled Welder' from the 19somethings - I have no idea exactly when. I also have no idea as to the service history. I suspect it's pure oil that's in there and probably the original oil.

There's no labelling telling me what oil was originally used either.

D

 

[DSR]

The gov text that set me off on this ....

 

[EM1L4]

They are never filled with PCBs

PCBs happen in the oil through years of having electricity around them

Its a very safe bet to assume that any electrical device immersed in oil, the oil will be contaminated with PCBs

I don’t think you’re correct on that, according to the HSE website:

What are PCBs?​

PCBs are a family of substances which are good electrical insulators. They are chemically stable, fire resistant and don't easily generate a vapour. You may find them in mixtures referred to as askarels or under a trade name. Examples of trade names of products which have contained PCBs are at the end of this leaflet.

 

[Parm]

I don’t think you’re correct on that, according to the HSE website:

What are PCBs?​

PCBs are a family of substances which are good electrical insulators. They are chemically stable, fire resistant and don't easily generate a vapour. You may find them in mixtures referred to as askarels or under a trade name. Examples of trade names of products which have contained PCBs are at the end of this leaflet.

Before you start telling me im wrong, read the detail on the website properly

A quick flick on a google and half a read of a web page does not maketh an expert

Over and out from me

 

[DSR]

I don’t think you’re correct on that, according to the HSE website:

What are PCBs?​

PCBs are a family of substances which are good electrical insulators. They are chemically stable, fire resistant and don't easily generate a vapour. You may find them in mixtures referred to as askarels or under a trade name. Examples of trade names of products which have contained PCBs are at the end of this leaflet.

They were also significantly cheaper than mineral oils in the past so were used in large quantities especially in power distribution networks i.e. hundreds of gallons of the stuff. I think (and I don't have a source) that the the volumes involved in welders would probably not warrant replacing the oils with PCB and the average welder repair service shop probably would only have access to pure oil rather than the PCBs.

I was surprised by the history - I thought they were a relatively recent chemical but they were known and used for a long time from the 1930s to mid 1970's.

 

[Munkul]

They are never filled with PCBs

PCBs happen in the oil through years of having electricity around them

Its a very safe bet to assume that any electrical device immersed in oil, the oil will be contaminated with PCBs

You had better inform the rest of the world of this astounding discovery! Oh and update the HSE web information page.

You're not always correct mate, none of us are all the time but this time you're way off.

 

[EM1L4]

Before you start telling me im wrong, read the detail on the website properly

A quick flick on a google and half a read of a web page does not maketh an expert

Over and out from me

Hi Parm,

it did come as a surprise to me to correct you but I’ve worked in the electricity industry for over a decade on equipment that has/could contain PCB’s on everything from 400v to 400KV transformers and have never come across a situation where the electricity was producing PCB’s (they produce acetylene and hydrogen but not PCB’s Most of the transformers that had PCB’s have been replaced but there are still a few with traces from when it was added/contaminated oil/plant was used.

I did do a google to confirm I wasn’t going mad and both the HSE website and Wikipedia have confirmed I’m not. Unless I’m misunderstanding the point you are making?

Polychlorinated biphenyl - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Do you know how to work safely with PCBs? - HSE

www.hse.gov.uk

Quote from the HSE doc:

“PCBs were used as dielectric filler liquids in some types of electrical equipment such as transformers, switchgear, capacitors and in the starter units of fluorescent lights and fractional horsepower motors”

 

[Brad93]

PCBs are the "oil type" fluids used, not a by-product of electricity going through oil. They are a man-made chemical compound.


PCBs are serious environmental contaminants which are very very difficult to break down in nature. Therefore they pose not just an immediate hazard to users/public through accidental direct exposure but from long term exposure to contaminated drinking water, soil and food chain.

If in doubt, dispose of the fluid correctly and refill with fresh. God knows where you would dispose of such stuff.

 

[DSR]

If in doubt, dispose of the fluid correctly and refill with fresh. God knows where you would dispose of such stuff.

That would be my next question should I come to that bridge

 

[Brad93]

That would be my next question should I come to that bridge

Whatever you do don't ring up the government, the ea, or the council. They want to or maybe already have started licensing existing equipment containing more than 0.05% PCBs

 

[brightspark]

thres still literally thousands of hv transformers and welders using pcb in the oil . ive come across it in old fluorescent fitting capacitors. a lot of it was used on ship transformers and electrical gear .it poses no problem unless it is leaking out or you are in direct contact to the skin on a regular basis working with the stuff

 

[brightspark]

To satisfy my curiosity.

Currently, the oil is sat ready to be filtered and poured back in to the welder, there isn't enough oil so it will have to be topped up, if it's PCB based, I will dispose of it and fill with new oil, if it's proper oil, I will just top up with the required amount of oil.


D

whats it in a pickhill welder or an oxford . has it lost any oil through leakage. if not there not filled up more than half way and it rises when you put the transformer back in

 

[brightspark]

They are never filled with PCBs

PCBs happen in the oil through years of having electricity around them

Its a very safe bet to assume that any electrical device immersed in oil, the oil will be contaminated with PCBs

rubbish