Formula 1

[minimutly]

There was no mistake and Lewis has always been more than man enough to admit his mistakes and today wasn't one of them unlike crashappen. Lewis had the line and all crashappen had to do was not drive into him, but once again he couldn't manage it, just as he did with LeClerc. Brilliant brilliant drive by Lewis and no one can take that away.

"Lewis had the line"
You need to look at that again mate.

 

[Screwdriver]

He was obviously alongside or he wouldn't have made contact.


How did Hamilton do it?


Of course we haven't all driven F1 cars, have you? I'm no expert but I can form my own opinion and accept other people's even if they are different to mine. They were racing, stuff happens and they have to get on with it.

He was behind him. How else do you suppose he hit Max rear right with his front left?

I can see how and we all know why - red mist.

I sincerely doubt anyone on this forum could drive one out of the garage, let alone race one. I only ever raced motorcycles, your position was "I've been watching racing since Jim Clarke, therefore I am right". My paraphrase.

No-one is right. The two most knowledgeable people in the world to ask what really happened are Max and Lewis. Wonder if they might agree? If they don't happen to agree, perhaps one might persuade the other with some clever punditry?

Maybe they'll just agree to disagree. Pretty much exactly as we must also do here.

 

[ukracer]

Sorry, the car in front has the line - you know that. There is only one line there - this isn't formula w.

That's incorrect. the car on the inside has the line if the front axle is past midway.

 

[ukracer]

He was behind him. How else do you suppose he hit Max rear right with his front left?

I can see how and we all know why - red mist.

I sincerely doubt anyone on this forum could drive one out of the garage, let alone race one. I only ever raced motorcycles, your position was "I've been watching racing since Jim Clarke, therefore I am right". My paraphrase.

No-one is right. The two most knowledgeable people in the world to ask what really happened are Max and Lewis. Wonder if they might agree? If they don't happen to agree, perhaps one might persuade the other with some clever punditry?

Maybe they'll just agree to disagree. Pretty much exactly as we must also do here.

This kid sums it up in a clear concise way

 

[Rkweld]

I think everyone needs to calm down. Everyone has an opinion and can voice it even about the credibility of the sources of each others information but think about your delivery of what you are saying. I think from looking at their position side by side before the corner it was 50/50. Either no penalty or both penalty. Someone said quite rightly that this conduct at this speed is how people get killed. They choose to race each other like it and hopefully neither suffer as a consequence but its not something new. They are both determined and dont want to back down and thats why they are both F1 WDC material. They generally get along well in a friendly respectful manner, so maybe we should too because I'm starting to not enjoy this thread.

 

[ukracer]

What an utter load of tosh. Some kid, who is sitting in front of a computer cutting frame by frame, trying to explain his reasoning why someone travelling at 200 mph should have done something to avoid an accident.
There is little hope for any reason here. And you, Mr Uk racer, are daft enough to use it. Pah.
Drive it, then tell me who had the corner...

 

[KemppiFrog]

As a big fan of Clarke and having met Hill back in that era. They really avoided contact, as the results in the cars of the time were often fatal. As the cars got safer, esp with the advent of carbon tubs, it got much safer and contact more common. I mentioned Shumaker, who should have been banned outright for some of his shunts. His Championship winning deliberate collision with Damon Hill, was a disgrace.

 

[pawsnizzy]

As a big fan of Clarke and having met Hill back in that era. They really avoided contact, as the results in the cars of the time were often fatal. As the cars got safer, esp with the advent of carbon tubs, it got much safer and contact more common. I mentioned Shumaker, who should have been banned outright for some of his shunts. His Championship winning deliberate collision with Damon Hill, was a disgrace.

I wish I could like this multiple times

 

[Bullet2012]

Only a couple of weeks to wait until it all starts again

 

[mike os]

the more i look at it the more inevitable it became... max was going off on that corner as soon as hamilton started the overtake unless hamilton backed off when he didnt achieve track position (ie at lease fully alongside at the point of impact), he was getting clipped as he did or sideswiped on the exit unless he slammed on the brakes.... not something anyone would expect the leading car to do under any racing circumstances short of something on the track ahead.

Hamilton took a chance that wasn't there, he got away with it.... in some ways thats racing, but i wonder what the comments would be if Verstappen had continued on the line though the corner (as was his 'right' as lead car) and forced hamilton off the inside of the corner...

ps i am a fan of neither

 

[ukracer]

That's a new one on me. Where does that rule come from? Sources?

In this case, the attacker is definitely more than halfway past the defender at the apex. The attacker has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the defender.

The rules of racing

The Formula 1 message boards have recently been abuzz with discussion of the Rosberg/Hamilton collision at Spa 2014. From these discussions it has emerged that many fans are not well acquainted wit…

f1metrics.wordpress.com

Some of you might be surprised to learn that once a corner begins, the FIA sporting regulations have almost nothing to say, besides ruling that drivers must remain within the track limits! Here, the sporting regulations defer to long-established norms for racing, which may not be known by all fans, and which contain significant gray areas.


I am led to believe that there is wording that covers the rules/regulations. But like you until I see them from an official source I am open to be corrected.

It's the gray areas that are the problem. Telemetry is really needed to try and see speeds, braking and previous use of that corner etc. But 1st lap incidents don't have this option. Plus defensive moved/lines cloud the issue anyway.

 

[ukracer]

the more i look at it the more inevitable it became... max was going off on that corner as soon as hamilton started the overtake unless hamilton backed off when he didnt achieve track position (ie at lease fully alongside at the point of impact),

That's the point. It's a misnomer that he needs to be.

i wonder what the comments would be if Verstappen had continued on the line though the corner (as was his 'right' as lead car) and forced hamilton off the inside of the corner...

ps i am a fan of neither

Which is essentially what he started to do and IMHO he would have had the penalty.
The key thing is the Stewards have more info and Data than we do. Which is why given what we CAN/HAVE seen I stand by it's a racing incident.
I believe it's hard for ANY steward to remove entirely from their mind the actual outcome of the contact and given that they made a decision that was NOT the most severe penalty they could have given, I will concede they know more than me.
In any event they will always be RIGHT.

 

[ukracer]

Well then I rather suspect the opinions would be 50/50 the other way...

Exactly.

(we all remember Rosberg doing that to Hamilton, squeezing him off the track and taking them both out)

Which was 100% Rosbergs Fault.

 

[Parm]

That's incorrect. the car on the inside has the line if the front axle is past midway.

Toto Wolf gave a very good explanation of the rules in his media interview after the race. He explained about car positioning and relative position of axels on both cars.

I suspect they know what they are talking about and have a good grasp of the rule book. I also suspect this may have been a feature of the “email” that’s been mentioned a few times.

its a racing incident with neither backing down.

Whats really interesting is that Mercedes very clearly quoted the rule book. Red Bull had a hissy fit

 

[minimutly]

In this case, the attacker is definitely more than halfway past the defender at the apex. The attacker has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the defender.View attachment 301017

The rules of racing

The Formula 1 message boards have recently been abuzz with discussion of the Rosberg/Hamilton collision at Spa 2014. From these discussions it has emerged that many fans are not well acquainted wit…

f1metrics.wordpress.com

Some of you might be surprised to learn that once a corner begins, the FIA sporting regulations have almost nothing to say, besides ruling that drivers must remain within the track limits! Here, the sporting regulations defer to long-established norms for racing, which may not be known by all fans, and which contain significant gray areas.


I am led to believe that there is wording that covers the rules/regulations. But like you until I see them from an official source I am open to be corrected.

It's the gray areas that are the problem. Telemetry is really needed to try and see speeds, braking and previous use of that corner etc. But 1st lap incidents don't have this option. Plus defensive moved/lines cloud the issue anyway.

A bit like roundabouts then....

 

[Parm]

In this case, the attacker is definitely more than halfway past the defender at the apex. The attacker has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the defender.View attachment 301017

The rules of racing

The Formula 1 message boards have recently been abuzz with discussion of the Rosberg/Hamilton collision at Spa 2014. From these discussions it has emerged that many fans are not well acquainted wit…

f1metrics.wordpress.com

Some of you might be surprised to learn that once a corner begins, the FIA sporting regulations have almost nothing to say, besides ruling that drivers must remain within the track limits! Here, the sporting regulations defer to long-established norms for racing, which may not be known by all fans, and which contain significant gray areas.


I am led to believe that there is wording that covers the rules/regulations. But like you until I see them from an official source I am open to be corrected.

It's the gray areas that are the problem. Telemetry is really needed to try and see speeds, braking and previous use of that corner etc. But 1st lap incidents don't have this option. Plus defensive moved/lines cloud the issue anyway.

I suspect this diagram and explanation may have featured in the Mercedes email to the chief steward

 

[RWD3M]

Well, I'm surprised this one hasn't been yet.

If the last 4 or 5 pages of this thread had been a convesation in a pub you'd have all been thrown out.

Now pack it in and behave yourselves. It's only F1 FFS! There are much bigger worries in the world.

 

[Parm]

Common folks. Let’s put the handbags away

clearly this is an emotive topic and touched a few nerves

let’s go back to. Being grown up.

 

[Parm]

@ukracer

have you been a race steward?

 

[Guest 10992]

Am I right in thinking that Redbull chose to pit Perez yesterday fit him with softs in order to get fastest lap which Lewis had held during the race. Thus denying him 1 point. If that is correct they sacrificed multiple team points and multiple driver points just to deny Lewis 1 point, who was it that was thrown under the bus then Horner?