Single Channel oscilloscope

[Robbie260]

Right so I must Fistly thank @premmington for his wisdom on the subject and time and effort he was willing too give me when we spoke on the subject of vehicle diagnostics a while back and what he had put into making his very detailed and informative website.

Have decided too get a single Channel oscilloscope for mainly control circuit and sensor diagnostics on large stationary marine engines and automotive/off highway equipment related diagnosis. I do occasionally work on VFDs for large 440v motors but this is mainly the ships electricians ground and not mine so I'm not taking that into account.

On the aforementioned website the Vellemen HPS10 was mentioned as being a good option, but no longer seems too be produced/avalible. The other option mentioned was the Uni-t UT81B

UNI-T Voltage Meter, Multimeter, Oscilloscope | UNI-T

Though this while still avalible has been superceded by the UT81C,

UNI-T Voltage Meter, Multimeter, Oscilloscope | UNI-T

The summit 740A which is also mentioned is still avalible through aliexpress but Im never that sure of ordering things from them.

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32620303767.html

And seems over priced in comparison too this which can be bought in the UK and looks too be a slightly higher spec non automotive specific version of the same meter.

TPI 440 True RMS Digital Multimeter & Handheld Oscilloscope

Two meters in one Measure electrical parameters with the DMM mode Track a single input with the oscilloscope

www.tester.co.uk

Has anyone got any other suggestions or comments, I'd really like too keep away from hantek and the really cheap Chinese rubbish that's out there.

Also have been considering consolidation of my collection of multimeters, down too one really good quality one, with augmented acessories instead of having multiple meters I'm carting around. Currently have a klein tools mm700, and klein clamp meter, fluke t6, megger voltage tester, and a mac tools automotive multi meter with the hall effect sensor clamp. I'm mainly working on lower voltage/amperage control and sensor circuits and have occasionally at work used a fluke 87v with the iflex current hoop and seperate current clamp. Not necessarily I will get fluke but something similar at least that is good quality probably Kyritsu or similar. Too often I find the clamp meters are just too low a resolution for the work I'm doing and I'm not using the clamp function enough too justify keeping a dedicated meters around for it. I will probably keep my klein tools MM700 as a spare but get shot of the others. Any recommendations for a similarly capable meter in that regards? Calibration is not something I'm bothered about not necessary for my work.

 

[mtt.tr]

If you are looking at uni-t you might aswell look at hantek.

Personally i wouldn't look for anything less than dual channel

 

[sako243]

Okay I do a lot of electronics and have a fair involvement in automotive stuff but it's typically in designing ECUs etc., so probably significantly different requirements for what you are asking for.

I'd agree with @mtt.tr - dual channel or more, if you're looking at automotive stuff then being able to monitor current and voltage simulatenously would be incredibly valuable for which you'd want dual channel.

The main thing would be to look at the minimum bandwidth you're looking at trying to look at and then factor in a significant bit of headroom because stuff is only going to get faster. The Hantek's aren't actually that bad from what I hear, never had personal experience with them as usually operating at the 1GHz+ bandwidth with Keysight or Tektronix scopes with 4-channels and even then struggling a little bit for number of channels. The Keysight I have on my desk at the moment is a lower bandwidth (200MHz) but does have the option of 16 digital inputs as well which is a really useful feature for the digital buses.

 

[Robbie260]

If you are looking at uni-t you might aswell look at hantek.

Personally i wouldn't look for anything less than dual channel

That maybe very much the case the unit just looks better built than the hantek units. I'd like too think about dual channels but I don't really need it for the work I'm going to be doing and portability is a big consideration. Anything sort of much bigger than a fluke 87v is automatically out on grounds of space considerations.

 

[m_c]

Dual is far more useful.

Personally I still use my PoScope ( PoScope Archives - Polabs ) at home, and it's done everything I need it to using it with my little windows tablet, although I don't think the software is that user friendly.
If I was doing more scope work, I'd probably buy one of the cheaper Picoscopes. The automotive specific ones I think are overpriced for what they are, but the software is pretty good.

 

[Robbie260]

Dual is far more useful.

Personally I still use my PoScope ( PoScope Archives - Polabs ) at home, and it's done everything I need it to using it with my little windows tablet, although I don't think the software is that user friendly.
If I was doing more scope work, I'd probably buy one of the cheaper Picoscopes. The automotive specific ones I think are overpriced for what they are, but the software is pretty good.

They look nice but they are never going too survive the heat and humidity and dirt in a ships engine room, don't particularly want too be hauling around a laptop either.

 

[Ross365]

I've owned both a Picoscope and an American "Swordfish" USB scope. These were used in a test labs rather than in engine rooms, but I did much prefer them to the one scope-meter which I borrowed... and quickly gave back!

 

[premmington]

I have a collection of scopes...

I am an auto-electrician. But I don't buy dedicated automotive scopes (with the exception of the above mentioned Picoscope).

I mostly use a single channel handheld scope - in a bump case.

Not often do I need two channels - if I do - I drag the laptop out with a Picoscope interface.

Never have I needed more than two channels in real use - never ever.

I did at one time go for experiments tracing CAN/LIN/VAN traces - (dynamic topology module mapping) - but most high end scan tools can cluster modules now - and deliver the results up in an easy to digest format of red/green traffic lights. But to be honest no man a live can have enuf channels to achieve what I tried here.



Another few interesting points on the subject are:

1. As time has progressed - I am using scopes less and less. Reason being - live data and diagnostic software has taken a great leap forward in the last four to six years - most engine management systems allow for live graphing of things thru the DL16 plug now. Plug in diagnostics have just got so much better.

2. I think I value the things I have made to connect a scope to wiring harnesses - more than the actual scope. All the little breakout boxes and BNC leads I have made up - make testing so much easier and more accurate. Inductive amp clamps are a must - I got a sellection of low and high amp ones.

3. I have never needed too much Hz speed and clever memory capture functions.

4. I do think owning a scope and playing with one - does further your knowledge base a lot. Seeing what is going on with a real time waveform really pushes the how and why home (well it does/did for me).


I started to play with scopes in 1985/1986 - to get this into perspective new Lada's with carbs were still being sold until they were discontinued in 1997 (because nobody wanted a Lada). Engine management control was in its infancy - scopes were a bit "geeky" in the car repair trade. While I was graphing out - ABS pulses and engine airflow control - everybody else was extracting errorcodes by counting flashing lights on dashboards.


It is easy to get drawn into the tech and extras with scopes - over spec your purchase - over buy - waste some hard earned money.
(you can pay £1300+ for a flagship iphone - but for £15 tescos will sell you a phone that makes and receives phone calls/text)



For what it is worth - I have a £225 UT81C scope I am using at the moment and I am very pleased with it...

This is in a plywood box I made on wheels - with a folding handle - which contains a Facom Multimeter/Panasonic toughbook/interfaces/12v charger/few screwdrivers and little socket set. The most useful thing about this box is - it has a lid I can sit on and smoke roll ups when I am struggling to fix things. I sit on this box so much pondering faults - someone has actually screwed a cup holder on the side of it - so I don't tip my tea over!

"Robbie260 - I also need to update my website link I gave you. Some of what you have read is from 2003"​

 

[sako243]

And there in lies the difference between someone trying to diagnose things vs. me designing things. My scope will interpret CAN data for example but usually requires two channels as it's a differential signal.

A diagnostics tool will not offer you insight as to why a CAN transaction is failing due to bus contention simply that a message didn't make it through but then again for what @Robbie260 and @premmington need they don't need to know that.

 

[premmington]

And there in lies the difference between someone trying to diagnose things vs. me designing things. My scope will interpret CAN data for example but usually requires two channels as it's a differential signal.

A diagnostics tool will not offer you insight as to why a CAN transaction is failing due to bus contention simply that a message didn't make it through but then again for what @Robbie260 and @premmington need they don't need to know that.

 

[JohnH]

First off, I have to agree that Prems site is excellent. I came across it some years ago and it was an eyeopener for me.

I do have several scopes including an old PicoScope ADC-212/50 which I have used on the odd occasion. Its main flaw is that it doesnt have an integral screen so its really a benchtop scope. The support from the Picoscope site is excellant however.

I also have a DS211 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194021656972?hash=item2d2c97898c:g:nKwAAOSwGFNgbXcr hand held single channel scope which is great for some automotive tasks, especially using various attenuators as its only good for 40V or so. I use it on the passenger seat, while driving the car about. Its great for ABS problems where you can backprobe the ECU sensor connector and monitor whats happening while the care is in motion. You can take snapshots to analyse later.



Dodgy tone ring in this case.

It may not be what your are after, but its horses for courses. The expensive part of a scope is all the wiring, attenuators etc. The scope is the cheap part.

 

[premmington]

First off, I have to agree that Prems site is excellent. I came across it some years ago and it was an eyeopener for me.

I do have several scopes including an old PicoScope ADC-212/50 which I have used on the odd occasion. Its main flaw is that it doesnt have an integral screen so its really a benchtop scope. The support from the Picoscope site is excellant however.

I also have a DS211 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194021656972?hash=item2d2c97898c:g:nKwAAOSwGFNgbXcr hand held single channel scope which is great for some automotive tasks, especially using various attenuators as its only good for 40V or so. I use it on the passenger seat, while driving the car about. Its great for ABS problems where you can backprobe the ECU sensor connector and monitor whats happening while the care is in motion. You can take snapshots to analyse later.



Dodgy tone ring in this case.

It may not be what your are after, but its horses for courses. The expensive part of a scope is all the wiring, attenuators etc. The scope is the cheap part.

Firstly - lets not think I am a diagnostics "guru" - I have seen enough of Frank Massey and "scanner danner from the states" to know these people are just selling training.

I think the best tool for diagnostics is "searching on google" for probable cause at the moment - I do it and it works for me!

Most things on vehicles are wiring problems - don't overthink them - you gotta be prepared to strip things - get everything out of the way and find the problem.




Hold this thought - the only reason I get paid work - is because "another garage or repairer has declared it impossible"...

 

[Maker]

It is easy to get drawn into the tech and extras with scopes - over spec your purchase - over buy - waste some hard earned money.

Tell me about it, I was quite happy with my old CRT Hameg until I got to use a Rohde & Schwarz mixed domain DSO at uni, full of features I'd literally never use but I still want it.

 

[mtt.tr]

i lack a modern diag computer as i dont do much of it, but for me an oscilloscope dual channel i find really handy for comparing injectors or using on the cam and crank to see if the chain is stretched or relative compression as you can then get an a spark pulse which can then be used to workout what cylinder is lacking compression.

also use it for general playing about to expand my understanding

 

[DSR]

I've got a Hantek DS5202-P works fine. They're a popular scope and there's a fair bit of stuff on the web about them and upgrding them etc. .

Far prefer it to my old Tektronix CRT thing - so much ligher and more portable.

I did buy a mini handheld thing - about 3" screen on it thinking it would be a great idea to use with the car etc. but it's too small, my fingers are too big for the menus and the user interface is not the most user friendly. I think it's in a drawer somewhere.

I've barely touched the Hantek really, I don't use it as much as I thought I would and haven't fully explored all its facilities, the stuff on my older scopes was all second nature, done without thinking etc. because I had used them so much but the new scope, I only use a few times a year and haven't built that familiarity up enough which is probably why I only use it a few times a year...

YMMV of course.

 

[Robbie260]

Right guys thanks for all the replys, looking at it all I'm thinking that the Uni-t UT81C will be the one too go for. And I see what you mean by live data on cars @premmington as I only have a small cheap mac tools tiny scanner and even it dose live data graphing.

Dose anyone have any opinions on mulit meters, looking for something close too the spec of the Fluke 87v don't necessarily want too spend that kinda money though, even though they are very very good meters. Remember it's kinda got too be an all rounder and cover industrial and automotive applications, I know some of the automotive meters skimp on the voltage ranges/protection too offer higher resolution as they just don't need it but when working on up too 600Vs daily it's something you do need with the resolution too match.

 

[mtt.tr]

Right guys thanks for all the replys, looking at it all I'm thinking that the Uni-t UT81C will be the one too go for. And I see what you mean by live data on cars @premmington as I only have a small cheap mac tools tiny scanner and even it dose live data graphing.

Dose anyone have any opinions on mulit meters, looking for something close too the spec of the Fluke 87v don't necessarily want too spend that kinda money though, even though they are very very good meters. Remember it's kinda got too be an all rounder and cover industrial and automotive applications, I know some of the automotive meters skimp on the voltage ranges/protection too offer higher resolution as they just don't need it but when working on up too 600Vs daily it's something you do need with the resolution too match.

my favorite dmms for the money have become uni-t 61d/e you have to be careful of models as just a letter can be the difference between awful and brilliant accurate enough to use and cheap enough to be happy to use

high energy i wouldnt **** about id by a big brand and pay the money

 

[Robbie260]

my favorite dmms for the money have become uni-t 61d/e you have to be careful of models as just a letter can be the difference between awful and brilliant accurate enough to use and cheap enough to be happy to use

high energy i wouldnt **** about id by a big brand and pay the money

Yes definitely getting a big brand name was thinking Kyritsu (Kewtech), Fluke or that French company that name totally escapes me.

 

[mtt.tr]

Yes definitely getting a big brand name was thinking Kyritsu (Kewtech), Fluke or that French company that name totally escapes me.

im not that much of a fan off kewtech, their lower end stuff is ok

 

[Robbie260]

im not that much of a fan off kewtech, their lower end stuff is ok

I may just stump up for the Fluke then as I do need the cat III 1000v protection.

Must admit I like my Klein MM700 it's a very good meter got it for $99 in the states, true rms the works, though its expensive over here for what it is, city electrical factor sell the same meter over here for £140 which is just nuts and a bit too much money. Take into account the exchange rate and it works out about half the price in the US that it is in the UK.