Just got this email from Haynes

[Hood]

This is what they are saying.

E10 petrol is coming to the UK – will it affect your vehicle? From September this year, the UK government will allow the introduction of E10 petrol at filling stations. ‘E10’ is a reference to the percentage of ethanol mixed into the petrol. Currently, the UK's normal ‘baseline’ petrol is E5. It contains 5% ethanol, so E10 contains twice the amount. The government claims that CO2 production will be cut by as much as 750,000 tonnes annually as a result of this change, but there could be some negative effects, too. Here Martynn explains what they could be... What is ethanol? Ethanol is ethyl alcohol, a plant-based biofuel made from biomass such as corn or sugar cane. Being plant-based, it’s a renewable form of fuel, not a fossil fuel. Ethanol absorbs water If your vehicle is less than 20 years old and is driven regularly (at least once a week), you're unlikely to notice any differences when using E10 petrol. But if your vehicle is left unused for a couple of weeks or more, the water content in the fuel will rise, which could cause corrosion in the fuel system and poor starting and performance. Ethanol is a solvent Ethanol will slowly eat through rubber, plastic and fibreglass. This will affect rubber seals and hoses in the fuel systems of older vehicles in particular, causing the material to perish and eventually leak. One solution is to replace them with special ethanol-proof components (fuel hose, seals, etc.). Ethanol is particularly bad news for solder, so older vehicles with carburettors and brass floats will be especially vulnerable. Ethanol is 34% less energy-dense than petrol So to get the same power output from your engine, that accelerator pedal is going to have to be pressed harder! Obviously, this will have an effect on your vehicle's fuel consumption. Will my vehicle be affected? The government claims there are currently around 600,000 vehicles on the road in the UK that should avoid using E10. Generally speaking, if your vehicle was made after 2000, it should be okay. Check the GOV.UK website here. What should I do if my vehicle can’t use E10? The good news is that the government has promised that E5 fuel will be available for at least five years. The not so good news is that only filling stations that sell more than 1,000,000 litres of fuel in total will need to ensure one of the fuels on offer is E5 (with some exceptions). You can be sure that, where available, E5 prices will rise accordingly. Vehicles in storage Fuel left in the tank for weeks will begin to degrade. The ethanol will absorb more moisture from condensation, and begin to separate out from the petrol it was mixed with. This will cause corrosion in metal fuel system components and could cause other problems. Certain types of plastic and fibreglass ‘swell’ when exposed to ethanol. Plastic fuel tanks seem especially affected by this, with mountings no longer aligning and sender unit caps no longer fitting. One possible solution is an additive that, when combined with the fuel, stabilises the ethanol, preventing it from separating out and helping to prevent corrosion. There are many suitable additives available, such as Millers Ethanol protection or Lucas Oil Ethanol fuel conditioner. Check with your owner's club or the Federation of British Historical Vehicle Clubs. So is ethanol in fuel a good idea? Given the problems it causes for older vehicles, the increase in fuel consumption and the increasing amount of land now used for fuel production that used to grow food, the jury’s still out on this one. Technical Editor, Martynn Randall has been with Haynes for 27 years and has written more than 60 Haynes Manuals.

 

[cheb]

When will it become reasonable to treat your own petrol to separate out the ethanol? It very easy, just add a quantity of water, stir and leave it to settle. The water and ethanol will drop out to be drained off.

The article is a bit irritating: Ethanol is a solvent, yes, but so is petrol, otherwise it wouldn't clean very well.

 

[RWD3M]

'....and the increasing amount of land now used for fuel production that used to grow food, the jury’s still out on this one'

This is the bit that troubles me.

Surely that can't be clever?

 

[Fastdruid]

It's advisable if you have anything that old to be affected by ethanol (pretty much anything pre-2000 or with a carb) to run it on Esso super these days (Except in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland).

 

[Arash]

Also Ethanol has lower calorefic value when compared to petrol so you get less for your wonga.

 

[ajlelectronics]

Even the E95 is eating fuel hoses. Six months is all that some supposed compliant hoses lasted me, before I discovered Cohline Biohose.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Weren't the Brazilians running on Ethanol in the 1980s....their vw beetles seem to be fine on the stuff?

 

[Munkul]

The sheer amount of problems that hauliers and farmers ran into, nearly overnight, when the diesel supplies switched to B7 - all the older tanks and those less frequently cycled got huge diesel bug problems. My mate's tanks were rotten with the stuff. At the time no-one really understood why. Now we know it's the combination of old stagnant holding tanks, and bio-diesel.

I'm all for progress and environmentalism, but I hate these hidden pitfalls.

 

[Shox Dr]

Stopped using ethanol included petrol 2yrs ago in my bikes, and last yr for the pickup. The biggest problem is finding full fat petrol. Some brands allow the forecourt Manager to decide as to wether their premium fuel has 5% added or not, and they dont have to tell you.

Nearest to me now is 15miles away

 

[stuvy]

The sheer amount of problems that hauliers and farmers ran into, nearly overnight, when the diesel supplies switched to B7 - all the older tanks and those less frequently cycled got huge diesel bug problems. My mate's tanks were rotten with the stuff. At the time no-one really understood why. Now we know it's the combination of old stagnant holding tanks, and bio-diesel.

I'm all for progress and environmentalism, but I hate these hidden pitfalls.

it’s not hidden they just don’t tell us about them

 

[Munkul]

it’s not hidden they just don’t tell us about them

I class that as pretty hidden

I mean, to be fair you could convert fuel systems to ethanol-friendly... but it won't be the cheapest job.

I'm also not convinced on the "green-ness" of bio-fuels, but I haven't seen enough unbiased data to really argue one way or the other. I've seen plenty stuff biased in favour, but without enough verifiable statistics to really win me over.

 

[stuvy]

I class that as pretty hidden

I mean, to be fair you could convert fuel systems to ethanol-friendly... but it won't be the cheapest job.

I'm also not convinced on the "green-ness" of bio-fuels, but I haven't seen enough unbiased data to really argue one way or the other. I've seen plenty stuff biased in favour, but without enough verifiable statistics to really win me over.

min my Land Rover club one chap has gone through 2 heads and 3 other lads have had issues with biodiesel

 

[frank horton]

ethenol will also eat brass as well as copper.....I put a new brass filter in an old style AC mech petrol pump.....
less than a year the brass gauze had disapeared.....my own vehicle.....
in FRance they have used the 10% karp for ages......
to over come the probs without buying exp fuel adatives all my vehicles inc mower got a few gall of 2 stoke mix put in the tanks.....they dont smoke or clog up the plugs.......
in the end cheapo petrol was getting worse, rough running and the strimmers etc were getting diff to start...
so only bought the best petrol available........end of the probs....
and Diesel fuel is now like paraffin not heavy oil of old.....
now replace all synth rubber fuel hoses with the Gates eth proof hoses.....
I buy the 15m rolls of 6,7,8 n 10mm dia.....u always need it for clients.....
just doin a 1980 Nissan pick up,2lt petrol,4x4....all the hoses are solid and cracked.....
guessing thats how the gov is getting rid of old cars etc, getting them to catch fire.......

they should make the MP's drink the stuff.....rant over.......

 

[Arash]

min my Land Rover club one chap has gone through 2 heads and 3 other lads have had issues with biodiesel

Trouble with anecdotal evidence is that it doesn't give enough information and is too vague, to clear it up (pun intended) biodiesel and veg oil with other things mixed in are 2 different chemicals. Biodiesel is classed as FAME (fatty acid methyl ester) veg with petrol, diesel. or other co-solvents mixed in is still veg oil.

Veg is more viscous when its cold so puts more stress on the injector pump, It also gums up the piston rings and allows bore wash, when it gets into the engine oil, with heat and pressure polymerises and seizes engines.

Both biodiesel and veg are good solvents and dissolve rubber parts including washers and hoses, these usually find their way into the filter and the IP banjo and cause running issues.

These things don't happen to every vehicle and to every owner, but if the brakes fail people blame veg or bio. A failed head on an old 4x4 is not usually veg related. Combination of age, wear and tear, revving the engine at almost static speeds (no additional air cooling) and putting loads on it that a normal car would not be usually under (ie.. offroading) cause heads to fail.

Biodiesel is slightly more viscous than petroleum diesel but burns with less of some emissions but more of others (higher nox), if made from used cooking oil is very carbon neutral and can be run in most (DPF's are problematic) diesel engines. But your bio needs to be well made with high conversion, low soap, water and other containments.

Slinging any old crud in your fuel system will lead to painful hours of standing on the side of the road next to your vehicle rather then in it going somewhere as I found out! But according to the FFRR forum I have been reading, landy owners are used to that

Running veg in your vehicle will get you intimately acquainted with your vehicle's fuel system whether you like it or not
Hope that dispels some myths.

 

[Stupoty]

Weren't the Brazilians running on Ethanol in the 1980s....their vw beetles seem to be fine on the stuff?

Air cooled , less pipes and stuff ?

My car definitely prefers the super duper petrol and some brands over other also.

Stu

 

[Morrisman]

It puts out less power, so you put your foot down more, so you use more fuel, thus make more CO2.....

It seems a self defeating exercise?

 

[mtt.tr]

I feel like once we are past the rubber issir this will feel like going from leaded to unleaded and won't be given a second thought

 

[mtt.tr]

min my Land Rover club one chap has gone through 2 heads and 3 other lads have had issues with biodiesel

Thats typical for land rovers irrespective of fuel