Why do transformer migs continue to hold their value?

[Wedg1e]

Horses for courses. For my needs an inverter is far more suited. I'd still pick a £200 Chinese inverter over a £1000 transformer.

Discs are better :P

Not on a 50-tonne earthmover.

Of course the situation dictates the equipment: I wouldn't want to lug my transformer TIG set up three levels of scaffolding to fix a stainless bracket, I'd sling the Migatronic inverter over my shoulder... but it wouldn't make the gas bottle any lighter.

 

[Wedg1e]

its really very simple.

if ww3 happened tomorrow and a nuke was dropped, causing a EMP... a couple of hours later a transformer welder would be working again and a inverter would be toast.

Bloody hell qwakers, they were saying that about valved radios 50 years ago. To this day it's still largely hypothetical, and anyway assuming you survived the blast, welding something together (or listening to Radio 4) probably wouldn't be high on your list of priorities even if there was still electricity to power it from

 

[qwakers]

it was more or less tongue in cheek... but the basic point still stands.

edit, and to be clear, money no object, id have inverter welders by preference. the upsides of weight and size are significant.

 

[arther dailey]

the strange thing though is valved amps are soo in trend due to better sound quality these days

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

That said, I don't do enough welding to justify buying a Kemppi

If you weld then you can justify a Kemppi .....the evo 200 really is a cracking little machine. I only do hobby stuff but it's so handy being able to swap wire types and have auto setup in minutes without having to mess about.

 

[Wedg1e]

If you weld then you can justify a Kemppi .....the evo 200 really is a cracking little machine. I only do hobby stuff but it's so handy being able to swap wire types and have auto setup in minutes without having to mess about.

I like the philosophy, but then I'd have to buy a better car, bike, house and evict last year's supermodel for this year's

 

[Wedg1e]

the strange thing though is valved amps are soo in trend due to better sound quality these days

Ohhhhh no. Not THAT old chestnut!

It'll be vinyl vs. CD next...

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

It'll be vinyl vs. CD next...

Surely everyone agrees that the wax cylinders give a much more authentic sound

 

[Gareth J]

To an intermittent user, the advantages of weight and power savings, and probably fancy settings, on an inverter are not a priority. Especially weight - when it needs to be connected to a chunky gas bottle either way.

I have an inverter arc. It's great; size of a loaf of bread, welds nicely and lightweight. Can easily use up a ladder. I also have a 40yr old transformer mig. It weights more than a moped, and is huge. But it's great, it welds great, lives in a less than perfect workshop and, while has had a few components replaced, soldiers on. Don't need to move it more than around the level workshop and even that's rare. Uses more power, but do I do enough welding for that to be a priority? Doubt it.

Am currently on the third arc inverter, middle of the road stuff that lasts 5-10yrs,
-Butters AMT
-TecArc
-GYS

So, I suspect that people like me over value the simplicity, fixability and potential reliability of transformers. Similar could be said about old land rovers.

 

[Nick DV]

It's more about why buy a transformer when inverters are better in every way.

How so? Excuse my ignorance, but please explain

 

[arther dailey]

the real answer is buy both, I have a second hhandtransformer which is what I use 90% of the time, i also have a second hand kemppi miniarc mig 180,excellent tool for when I need something mobile. neither are a fashion or fad for "latest" spec but both do exactly what I need , yes I would like a double pulse mig and probably will get one eventually and an ac tig but for the amount they would contribute there is no urgency/reason to buy the latest flash wizz bang model on offer.
its horses for courses I know with out a shadow of a doubt the oxford will out live me and always be economically fixable so it stays, I know when I needed to go out in the field a few months ago and weld a gate pin...two skinny 100 ft extention leads and the kemppi sorted it, so it stays.
you pays your monies and take your pick, the latest rohr and blackline migs make sence value wise for those that prefer an inverter,but whats the longevity like ? these days I believe they are getting better and better . Enjoy what you have while you have it thats the thing

 

[hooblah]

How so? Excuse my ignorance, but please explain

As mentioned further up, they're all usually built with the same parts. They're completely adjustable. The wire feeds work well. And they're small and light.

Compare the blackline mig to something 200a transformer based - look at the size difference.
Then compare it to something smaller but still transformer based - you're down to around 130a. And it still weighs a ton.
Then compare it to something in the same sort of price range - you'll find the quality of components of the tranformer is junk and user experience is compromised.

Don't get me wrong, I can see the appeal of spending £400 on a good transformer mig, vs £200 on a china special inverter. It'll certainly outlast you, providing you have the space and don't want the portability or adjustability, I'm sure it'll be fine.

 

[arther dailey]

As mentioned further up, they're all usually built with the same parts. They're completely adjustable. The wire feeds work well. And they're small and light.

Compare the blackline mig to something 200a transformer based - look at the size difference.
Then compare it to something smaller but still transformer based - you're down to around 130a. And it still weighs a ton.
Then compare it to something in the same sort of price range - you'll find the quality of components of the tranformer is junk and user experience is compromised.

Don't get me wrong, I can see the appeal of spending £400 on a good transformer mig, vs £200 on a china special inverter. It'll certainly outlast you, providing you have the space and don't want the portability or adjustability, I'm sure it'll be fine.

agree, but if you buy a second hand portamig I can garauntee pretty much it will be about that price but will still be working thirty years down the line, but lets face it by then you will have bought several new inverters as they get smaller /more features etc or just gone pop, its all just a personal choice which way to go , i use and love both types.

 

[Robbie260]

agree, but if you buy a second hand portamig I can garauntee pretty much it will be about that price but will still be working thirty years down the line, but lets face it by then you will have bought several new inverters as they get smaller /more features etc or just gone pop, its all just a personal choice which way to go , i use and love both types.

My sentiment is based on that I'm unlikely to keep a welder for more than ten years I'd like an inverter that would last that long but by the time ten years is up a new one will be out with more better features to make my life easier so I'll probably be looking to buy that at that point. If I buy a good inverter and cant justify keeping two welder hopefully it will still be worth something at 10 years old.

 

[Wedg1e]

There may also be an element of productivity involved; if you make money from your welding then the latest all-singing inverter toy with all the whizzbangs could shave off seconds of setup time, or whatever, so by the time it dies you could argue that the hassle and chew of finding a repairer is outweighed by the fact that you've already 'had your money's worth' and a new one is an investment.
As a hobbyist you'd probably rather it just worked as well as it was supposed to, whenever you switched it on. Inverters use a lot of high-voltage electrolytic capacitors which don't like being left discharged for long periods and then expected to deliver full performance, where a transformer and big rectifier is less bothered.
I've had to cover off my Oerlikon plasma which is an inverter unit, and I know that when it fails I'll be spending a few minutes looking for an obvious fault and then binning it, where all my MIGs and the transformer TIG set can be checked down to component level quite easily. Again, as a hobbyist, I wouldn't want to have to pay a professional to repair anything.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

I'd like an inverter that would last that long but by the time ten years is up a new one will be out with more better features to make my life easier

My Kemppi was £1,000 8 years ago...evo 200...they rarely come up second hand (think I've seen 2 on eBay in 8 years). I suspect if I sold it I'd get £600+ back which ain't bad in my book.

Whats really interesting is Kemppi basically sells exactly the same model today...I guess nothing needed changing. They don't manufacture in China so their stuff hasn't been copied and rebadged.

At one point I considered selling my Kemppi and just buying a new one...basically get a refresh for £400!

 

[hooblah]

As a hobbyist you'd probably rather it just worked as well as it was supposed to, whenever you switched it on. Inverters use a lot of high-voltage electrolytic capacitors which don't like being left discharged for long periods and then expected to deliver full performance, where a transformer and big rectifier is less bothered.
I've had to cover off my Oerlikon plasma which is an inverter unit, and I know that when it fails I'll be spending a few minutes looking for an obvious fault and then binning it, where all my MIGs and the transformer TIG set can be checked down to component level quite easily. Again, as a hobbyist, I wouldn't want to have to pay a professional to repair anything.

Coming back to that cebora I got rid of... I'm an occasional user at the most, but you can't beat the convenience that comes with good equipment. At that end of the market they're all built as cheap as possible. It was 'ok' when the wire feed worked, but I wouldn't recommend one to anyone - and they're meant to be one of the best used hobby migs! I thought about upgrading it, but it wasnt economical, and it still wouldn't be that good.
For £250 I honestly don't know why you wouldn't buy a new generic Chinese inverter instead of something 30 years old and shagged.

 

[arther dailey]

trust me most people dont spend £250 on a cebora 130, more like £100 to £150, my spare one cost me £30, I cleaned inside, new liner and it works spot on ,looks rough as heck though,nothing wrong with wire feed it will weld car bodywork every bit as good as my kemmpi or oxford. You got lucky on your sale and good on you. Mines a keeper no matter what else I have as just great tool.

 

[hooblah]

That's not the point I'm making. But if we're heading down that route, why spend £100 on what is essentially a piece of 2nd hand crap? I see it over and over in here, where someone new asks 'what welder for £xxx?' and gets recommended the usual budget crap.
A Chinese inverter can be had from £99, it will most likely outperform anything up to £300, it makes buying a transformer pointless.

And as for reliability, are they actually unreliable? I haven't seen any evidence to suggest so. Same goes with this condensation/moisture getting to the electronics myth. The only ones that seem to be hanging on are the ones that can't/won't educate themselves.

I actually found the cebora not very nice to use. It was cheap and nasty. I don't know how you can put a kemppi in the same league.

 

[Nick DV]

It'll certainly outlast you, providing you have the space and don't want the portability or adjustability, I'm sure it'll be fine.

So inverters aren't better in every way!

The only ones that seem to be hanging on are the ones that can't/won't educate themselves.

Given the wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum, that's a pretty sweeping and condescending statement!