Thermal Arc 250 TE

[Munkul]

Possibly getting one of these later on, as spares/repairs. It's a DC TIG/MMA with hf and pulse options.

I can't find anything out about them at all, not even a sales brochure.



For the life of me, I can't work out who made it!

It's not an older Sanrex.
It doesn't look like any WTL machine.
It has CL. I. H on the duty cycle sticker, along with "refroid. af" making me think it's european built - SAF have the same wording on their duty cycle labels.
The case design looks similar to some Oerlikon and Polish-built Lincolns, but again, it doesn't look like any Oerlikon or SAF I can see.

What do we think?
I bet someone is gonna say it's WTL

 

[Munkul]

Found a sales brochure.

They were sold at the same time as WTL and Sanrex machines together, as well as Lorch MIG sets.

https://issuu.com/unitedwlding/docs/thermadyne_product_guide_2012



Since it's definitely not Sanrex, it's probably WTL.

Oh well.

It's got a better duty cycle rating than any WTL machine I've ever seen before, though...

Could it be a Lorch built machine?

 

[Munkul]

Got the machine last night, didn't have much time tonight but did try it out on stick welding mode. It works just fine
There is no gas solenoid, no hf and no arc in the TIG mode, even when I jumper the pins for the switch. So either a bad connection internally, or that part of the control circuit is bad. Might be an easy fix... I hope so, anyway. The panel functions all seem adjustable as normal.
The sticker says made in EC... Economy China, or European Community?

 

[carbon]

I have the ac/dc version of that, seems to cope ok but I dont use it everyday. I purchased it second hand from a local commercial body builders who had upgraded there machines

 

[addjunkie]

I have one of the Sanrex machines, I think those were towards the end of the sanrex ones when they were trying to drop their prices to compete in the cut price market.

 

[Turbo]

I have a 150 TE that looks nearly identical to that. It welds tig nicely, the hf is great & the mma is great too but I can't get it to run 7018's nicely.

Changing settings using the touch panel is confusing as each button does more than one thing, for example setting preflow & postflow.

I have a copy of the manual somewhere, I can send you the file. I got it by e-mailing TA with my welder details & serial no.

Thread here https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/help-with-thermal-arc-150-te.57523/#post-699616

 

[Munkul]

Interesting reading Turbo after what you said about the torch switch bulkhead wiring, here's hoping that's what's wrong with mine

It was 7018 I ran on this last night, it wasn't the best MMA set I've ever used, not enough voltage reserve or arc force, but certainly not the worst. It lit and ran smoothly anyway, and would run 6013 even better I guess.

I bought it off a guy who had used it as his personal machine for years, and when it stopped working on TIG, he went out and bought a jasic I thought this machine was a good punt for £60.

Hoping it was a Lorch was wishful thinking, but still, EC made - I'll take it.

Strange control panel though. One rotary encoder, and press/hold membrane buttons for every feature except slope down, which has its own pot... quite a nice thing I suppose, for fine tuning.

Hopefully I'll get time to open it up this weekend... although I've got quite a lot of work just come in.

@Turbo, what was the email address for TA? I can only see an esab UK address.

 

[carbon]

I think thermal arc got took over by esab. All the manuals for thermal arc machines were available from there website but seems esab don’t want them available anymore.

 

[matt1978]

Got the machine last night, didn't have much time tonight but did try it out on stick welding mode. It works just fine
There is no gas solenoid, no hf and no arc in the TIG mode, even when I jumper the pins for the switch. So either a bad connection internally, or that part of the control circuit is bad. Might be an easy fix... I hope so, anyway. The panel functions all seem adjustable as normal.
The sticker says made in EC... Economy China, or European Community?
View attachment 257189 View attachment 257190 View attachment 257191

I am 99.99% sure that machine was made for them by a French company called Elektrosta from Lyon. Would of been from around 2006ish. Sadly they went bankrupt some years ago.

The same machine was also made for other manufacturers. Migatronic?? Lorch even had some as a stop gap whilst the T series was under development. Unfortunately the reliability was shocking and it was very short lived.

I’ll check our service archive and see if I can find any schematics for you.

 

[Munkul]

Elektrosta - that pulls up the same machine in different colours thanks!

Not happy to hear your comment re reliability, you're supposed to tell me good things but then, there's lots of poor reliability machines out there from various good brands, this one has survived so far... I kinda like it, and kinda want it to be a good machine if it's fixable

 

[matt1978]

Elektrosta - that pulls up the same machine in different colours thanks!

Not happy to hear your comment re reliability, you're supposed to tell me good things but then, there's lots of poor reliability machines out there from various good brands, this one has survived so far... I kinda like it, and kinda want it to be a good machine if it's fixable

If it was going to have any major issues I’m sure it would of had them by now

You can go wrong for £60. Would of cost best part of £2k when new

 

[Munkul]

I've now found an operating manual for the Elektrosta version - excellent

It has some really nice features as standard. On-demand water cooling, temp controlled fan speed, 0.2-99hz pulse, and every possible parameter adjustable. Some in the background.

You can have a torch pot through the front 5pin socket, or a foot pedal through the rear socket. The sort of thing you'd expect to only find on high end machines today.

 

[Turbo]

Interesting reading Turbo after what you said about the torch switch bulkhead wiring, here's hoping that's what's wrong with mine

It was 7018 I ran on this last night, it wasn't the best MMA set I've ever used, not enough voltage reserve or arc force, but certainly not the worst. It lit and ran smoothly anyway, and would run 6013 even better I guess.

I bought it off a guy who had used it as his personal machine for years, and when it stopped working on TIG, he went out and bought a jasic I thought this machine was a good punt for £60.

Hoping it was a Lorch was wishful thinking, but still, EC made - I'll take it.

Strange control panel though. One rotary encoder, and press/hold membrane buttons for every feature except slope down, which has its own pot... quite a nice thing I suppose, for fine tuning.

Hopefully I'll get time to open it up this weekend... although I've got quite a lot of work just come in.

@Turbo, what was the email address for TA? I can only see an esab UK address.

Can't find the old e-mail but you are sorted anyway.

As regards the 7018's - to get them to light you had to have the amps up too high, even then it was difficult but once lit they welded nicely on the flat. Vertical up was impossible because the amps were too high!

I think I had a problem with the gas connection on the front or back, it was spinning around inside the welder when you tried to connect it up. It was a poor design & I don't think I ever got it to work - if you need to disconnect it regularly you would be better fitting a short hose with quick connectors.

 

[minimutly]

If it was going to have any major issues I’m sure it would of had them by now

You can go wrong for £60. Would of cost best part of £2k when new

Classic!

 

[Munkul]

i pulled the panels off the machine at the weekend. I checked continuity from the torch switch wires through the little break-out board for the panel socket, and there's nothing wrong with them. So... problem elsewhere

The breakout board wires go back to one of the control PCBs. I couldn't see anything visually wrong with any of the components on the outer surfaces, and I didn't have time to pull the boards off.

I suppose I'll have to completely dismantle it when i get time, and visually trace all board components.

The breakout board has 5 pins.
1 - Torch trigger
2 - Torch trigger
3 - Minimum of the torch’s potentiometer
4 - Cursor of the torch’s potentiometer
5 - Maximum of the torch’s potentiometer

So, I assume pin 3 is 0v, pin 5 is +5v (or whatever control voltage it is) and the "cursor" is the wiper. Would the control voltage be a good place to start? Because I assume the control voltage also drives the board - if no control volts, then no torch switch either....?

 

[Munkul]

Elektrosta 250 "cableage" diagram. Doesn't seem to be particularly helpful, but it's here anyway.

 

[Munkul]

I got an email from Esab UK with a user manual today Very helpful, as it has more information in it than the Elektrosta version. It has pinouts and descriptions on each PCB, which is far more helpful for fault finding, especially for a non-expert like myself.

The torch switch inputs go into PCB L93131, and here are the pinouts:

PCB L93131 : Secondary protection, HF, gas control PCB

Connector J1 :
Pin 1 & 2 : Minus output of welding circuit

Connector J3 :
Pin 1 & 2 : insulated 230VAC from auxiliary transformer

Connector J4 : matches with J2 of L93021 PCB
Pin 1 : -20V DC
Pin 2 : +20V DC
Pin 3 : not used
Pin 4 : not used
Pin 5 : not used
Pin 6 : remote control or torch’s potentiometer value
Pin 7 : 15V AC signal (used for torch trigger detection)
Pin 8 : Open drain for HF ON /OFF control
Pin 9 : input of torch trigger detection
Pin 10 : Open drain for gas ON /OFF control
Pin 11 : Open drain for cooler pump ON /OFF control
Pin 12 : Cooling default input (+20V when default)
Pin 13 : Over voltage protection or phase miising input
Pin 14 : NTC thermistor return (0-5V) for primary temperature measurement
Pin 15 : electronic ground

Connector J5 : Torch connector – matches with torch socket pins
Pin 1 & 2 : torch switch
Pin 3 : min of torch’s potentiometer
Pin 4 : cursor of torch’s potentiometer
Pin 5 : max of torch’s potentiometer

Connector J6 :
Pin 1 : not used
Pin 2 & 3 : electronic ground
Pin 4 : Over voltage protection or phase missing input from L93101 or L93191 PCB

Connector J7 :
Pin 1 & 2 : Primary coil of HF transformer

Connector J8 :
Pin 1 & 2 : 230VAC to gas solenoid

Connector J9 : remote control connector
Pin 1 & 2 : torch switch
Pin 3 : +20VDC
Pin 4 : min of torch’s potentiometer
Pin 5 : cursor of torch’s potentiometer
Pin 6 : max of torch’s potentiometer

Connector J10 :
Pin 1 : to pin 3 of cooling unit socket
Pin 2 : to pin 2 of cooling unit socket
Pin 3 : to pin 1 of cooling unit socket
Pin 4 : to 230VAC pin of auxiliary transformer

So... My first place to start would be to remove covers, switch on, and test control voltages of 15vac, and +/-20vdc. Secondly, to investigate the open drains for hf and gas control.

 

[Munkul]

I finally had time in 2 years to actually have a look at this.
I've checked all of the 5v, 15vac, +/-20v and tried to trigger the TIG torch on both remote inputs (j5 and j9)
The voltages are all OK, but the torch trigger still doesn't do anything.
I had a good look right through all of the boards, and all of the components look fine. Apart from 3 resistors that looked hot, but their resistance values still checked out OK so nothing wrong there.
I think the problem must be in this board somewhere, but I'm not sure how to check open drains (been far too long since I did any real electronics and I can't be bothered to re-learn)

Will offer it for sale on here for cost price if anyone wants it.