Why bother when you can buy the Bester and have a non chinesium euro torch in the first place?
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Why bother when you can buy the Bester and have a non chinesium euro torch in the first place?
Hi all first of I am only a Hobby welder and use my 20 year old Sealy Mig that I bought new at a steam Rally. It still does all I ask of it....
However I read on above posts something I'm not sure of and I hope some one can explain to me what the difference is between an Inverter and Transformer welder ... Just curios.
However I read on above posts something I'm not sure of and I hope some one can explain to me what the difference is between an Inverter and Transformer welder ... Just curios.
Munkul
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A transfomer is a simple device with electrical windings which reduce the voltage and smooth the current, same technology used since the advent of MIG welding, really.
An inverter is a box of fancy electronics which does the same thing
but can do clever-er stuff with the welding arc and make life easier, but also much more likely to let the magic smoke out of the electronics.Good transformers are better than crap inverters, but good inverters are arguably better than good transformers, with a whole load of overlap depending on make and model. It really depends what you want to do with your machine, and if you want bells and whistles.
Either way, you still generally get what you pay for.
Pigeon_Droppings2
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A big difference is size and weight....inverters tend to be small and very light...for hobby users I think this is a big selling point (sometimes the main selling point).
For the same size and weight I don't think transformers can match inverters....but sometimes that's irrelevant if you have a big workshop.
For the same size and weight I don't think transformers can match inverters....but sometimes that's irrelevant if you have a big workshop.
HughF
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I open them up and see what the quality of the PCB assembly is like - given that PCB assembly and engineering is part of the dayjob I think I'm suitably qualified to judge. The also giveaway in terms of quality is how well the case screws go back into their holes. No, I'm not joking...
Bravheart
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I too have the blackline after reading reviews on here, never used an inverter before and up to then hadn't paid much for second hand transformer welders. Seems some of the components in one box could date back to war times so the reliability of a transformer box is not in question, portability is though so had to splash out on a light(er) weight inverter to get round a problem and the blackline does the job, no auto settings but all I need for part time use, cables are a bit plasticky and the earth a bit short but useable and smooth, believe it's also badged snap-on.
Remember its less than half the price so if it does pack In get another.
Hugh I'm well aware of your credentials :P
That's still not answering the question though is it?
I'll rephrase to save further confusion.
What's the difference in between a high end and low end inverter mig? I'm not looking for generic answers. I'd like solid facts and evidence. And just because one is more expensive, it doesn't automatically mean 'you get what you pay for'...
And please could you use google or start another thread if you have questions that are off topic.
HughF
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It is usually down to the following:
Physical build quality - screws, quality of wire feeder, quality of crimps used internally, quality of dinse connectors
Power supply design - most chinese inverters use the same design of power circuit, which is always built around and off the shelf power supply IC, just like the early fronius machines (these are basically a reference design) - it's not a bad design of circuit. Most do not have any power factor correction. Fancy inverters from the german manufacturers may use a slightly different tank circuit and high frequency chopper (lorch's Micor series). It isn't any better in terms of reliability, but it can be more efficient in power usage.
Quality of supplied accessories - this doesn't need much explanation
Thank you for the explanation I appreciate it.A transfomer is a simple device with electrical windings which reduce the voltage and smooth the current, same technology used since the advent of MIG welding, really.
An inverter is a box of fancy electronics which does the same thing
Good transformers are better than crap inverters, but good inverters are arguably better than good transformers, with a whole load of overlap depending on make and model. It really depends what you want to do with your machine, and if you want bells and whistles.
Either way, you still generally get what you pay for.
Pigeon_Droppings2
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good luck
HughF
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The uptime is pretty well built inside actually, but the dinse connectors are a bit cack. It also suffers from feedback oscillation when welding in mma mode. The attached torch doesn't like running at high duty cycles, but apart from that it works well enough. The covers go on and off easily and the screws line up
I haven't seen the inside of the bester 190 so can't pass comment.
matt1978
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I think you also need to temper your expectations in regard to “high end” and what constitutes pricing as being a bit “Steep”. If it’s not your job and more of a hobby I can well appreciate that £500 is a lot of money, but in the world of industrial welding machines it’s less than peanuts.
By their own admission, the Bester range from Lincoln is their entry level brand and the new Multi process is entry level even for the Bester brand. That by no means says it’s a bad product because I’m sure it’s not, but if you want to consider true “high end” in this 1ph Multi process sector Then take a look at the Offerings from EWM, Miller, Böhler and Fronius. The quality will be on another level and the £500 will need to be multiplied 2-4 times.
What you are actually comparing with the budget you’ve mentioned and a lot of the machines referenced as examples are the really low entry level generic (white box) hobby/semi pro machines against a entry level machine from a global brand which is really well backed up in most countries across Europe.
By their own admission, the Bester range from Lincoln is their entry level brand and the new Multi process is entry level even for the Bester brand. That by no means says it’s a bad product because I’m sure it’s not, but if you want to consider true “high end” in this 1ph Multi process sector Then take a look at the Offerings from EWM, Miller, Böhler and Fronius. The quality will be on another level and the £500 will need to be multiplied 2-4 times.
What you are actually comparing with the budget you’ve mentioned and a lot of the machines referenced as examples are the really low entry level generic (white box) hobby/semi pro machines against a entry level machine from a global brand which is really well backed up in most countries across Europe.
Thanks Matt. I'm well aware that the Bester is not high end. Perhaps I should have phrased that as two questions.
1. What is the difference between a Chinese inverter mig and a Lincoln Bester?
2. What is the difference between a Chinese inverter mig and a high end inverter mig (disregarding synergic)?
1. What is the difference between a Chinese inverter mig and a Lincoln Bester?
2. What is the difference between a Chinese inverter mig and a high end inverter mig (disregarding synergic)?
mike os
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1, theoretically nothing, but what about support if things go wrong, how happy are you shipping a 25-50kg lump to china for repairs then paying the same to get it returned? (and dealing with customs paperwork loss of use etc?)
2, theoretically nothing, but see 1, the chinese are perfectly capable of producing world class kit, they just chose to pedal crap to countries where they think they will get away with it.... ie everywhere
you could end up with a world class welder or a £500 doorstop,
Big brands come at a premium, but thats because they have a reputation to maintain and will support your machine for years.
matt1978
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The main answers have already been mentioned. Bester also have the Multi Process machine you mention made in China, so unless you get 2 units side by side it’s impossible to reference component quality as a difference, although you could expect that to be the case. On this occasion your buying the back up and support of a well known and well established dealer network. So should anything go wrong (it should) be relatively painless to get it sorted, especially if the fault occurs under warranty. On the more generic ones you mentioned with no UK support it could be more problematic to get any issues resolved and in some cases most likely not worth the costs.
Comparing the high end inverters to the generic Chinese options the differences are more clear cut. You wouldn’t even need to take the side panels off to be safe in the knowledge that the quality of the components used and the quality of the construction or much better. On top of that the after sales service will be better and easier to access.
Understandable on the warranty and service side of things.
All electronics eventually fail, and there's nothing to say that a £160 Uptime won't last as long, or longer than a Bester. The Uptime comes with 1 year warranty. An r-tech has a 3 year warranty. And a Lincoln Bester has a 2 year warranty. Regardless of the warranty period, what happens in 5 or 10 years if it requires repair? The cost would probably outweigh economical repair. But I can only base that off of the little info I have available, and since there is no conclusive evidence to say that one has been designed better than the other, I can only assume that they are made to the same standard.... but that leads me on to another question...
Is there a difference in quality/build standard between the Chinese inverter migs? Are there ones that are better? Are there ones to avoid?
It's all well and good people giving their initial opinions, but these machines are all relatively new to the market and longevity has not been proven. It would be nice to know if some analysis has been done by someone who is well versed in electronics and design, and if a comparison can be formed. @HughF care to chime in? :P
All electronics eventually fail, and there's nothing to say that a £160 Uptime won't last as long, or longer than a Bester. The Uptime comes with 1 year warranty. An r-tech has a 3 year warranty. And a Lincoln Bester has a 2 year warranty. Regardless of the warranty period, what happens in 5 or 10 years if it requires repair? The cost would probably outweigh economical repair. But I can only base that off of the little info I have available, and since there is no conclusive evidence to say that one has been designed better than the other, I can only assume that they are made to the same standard.... but that leads me on to another question...
Is there a difference in quality/build standard between the Chinese inverter migs? Are there ones that are better? Are there ones to avoid?
It's all well and good people giving their initial opinions, but these machines are all relatively new to the market and longevity has not been proven. It would be nice to know if some analysis has been done by someone who is well versed in electronics and design, and if a comparison can be formed. @HughF care to chime in? :P
Benterrier
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I found this YouTube video very interesting:
The video answers I hope some of your questions asked for in the posting
The video answers I hope some of your questions asked for in the posting
