Chinese manufacturing

[Angusdog]

Okay, so we've all seen and probably experienced the quality of stuff coming out of China. Probably all my tools came from there, and while some were undoubtably rubbish that fell apart in my hands, some is doing sterling service. My compressor (laughingly marketed under the 'Euro' brand) does a superb job, and for the light use they gets in my work, the other tools hold up well. Those that don't end up in the bin.

But where do those Ebay sellers get their stuff? It was a revelation to me to find Alibaba.com. I've linked to their machine tools section, but there's everything under the eastern sun. RC cars, washing machines, scooters, lordy lordy.

For example, check out this lathe;

I heard of one guy at a trade show who was asked by a chinese manufacturer "How come you only want to hear about our cheap stuff?"

Anyway, I thought it was interesting. I'd love to know the price per unit for some of the gear listed. I'd really like a 1/5 scale gas radio control buggy, for example and if the minimum quantity is 5 units and I can land them for NZ$500/unit, sell 4 online for $800, why wouldn't I? Actually, legally in NZ you must provide backup for items you import and sell, but factor in full refunds for 1 in 10 units and it becomes feasible.

Another example is this:

Funky little IGBT welder (apparently IGBT is better than MOSFET as a technology, the subtleties are beyond my small brain), but with local support (total replacement I imagine) some guys are going to get a handy and capable welder in a small form factor at a price they can afford. And some people are going to be shafted, without a doubt.

Anyway, I find it interesting to look into 'the belly of the beast'. It makes for interesting browsing. If you search for TIG welding machine, you get 3,751 hits.

 

[weldequip]

Chinese manufacturing eh, we're all hooked...can't resist the prices!
I've had to start selling the stuff myself, much to my own greavance...but market forces dictate
If it's from the right source with the right back-up it can be fine, but make no mistake, the end result will be a complete hollowing out of all Western manufacturing (I've banged on about this for years & everbody got sick of it, but seeing as you're a Kiwi & a bit closer to the region I thought I'd reiterate the point! ).
Read just on Sunday that China is considering a ban on all exports of 'Rare Earth Metals'...critical to high-tech engineering projects such as guided missles, wind-turbines, lap-tops, mobile phones etc.etc. China just happens to mine 95% of all the worlds resource for rare earth metals Total Sh1ts! with no regard for copyrights, trademarks, trading relations etc.etc.
Communist capatalists...how's that work then?!
weldequip

 

[matt1978]

That Alibaba is an interesting site.

I dont think you would have much joy just offering to buy 5 though, generally they talk in container qtys.

That inverter tig looks quite a Purple brand we have in the UK...........

 

[Angusdog]

I suppose you have to feel sorry for the massive copyright infringements (Like building a copy of Disneyland. Disney being one of the most litigious companies in the world, and they can do nothing).

My brother-in-law works for a large dairy company (NZers will know it well...) and in the 80s they shipped to China some kind of huge milk homogeniser (can't remember what it was exactly, picture a huge boiler type thing). During shipping, it was dented on one panel. 10 years later, on a subsequent visit, the kiwis noticed quite a few identical machines, right down to the dent in the panel...

China is just so big, and their labour costs so small, that you just can't fight it. I really feel sorry for local manufacturers, it isn't fair and it isn't right. It will probably lead to a lowering of standards, but perhaps people said that about japanese manufacturing in the 50s and 60s?

 

[Angusdog]

dont think you would have much joy just offering to buy 5 though, generally they talk in container qtys.

A lot of the listings have minimum quantities to order, ranging from 1 to 5,000 and upwards.

 

[weldequip]

I really feel sorry for local manufacturers, it isn't fair and it isn't right.

But you (everybody) keep supporting their demise by buying cheap Chinese stuff!
weldequip

 

[matt1978]

Maybe your right, I dont know where it will all end up. I work for a German machine manufacturer and I see how many tens of thousands even hundreds of thousands of Euros it costs to develop new powersources/processes etc and these guys are just copying it all with absolutely no fear.

What happens to the rest of the world? If we end up buying everything from China because its lots cheaper, but inturn put all of our Western manufacturing/Infrastructure on the dole, what do we in the West do for employment? If no one is earning money in the West, where will the money come from to buy these goods (however cheap).

I have no idea..........

 

[weldequip]

what do we in the West do for employment?

We are leading the 'green revoloution' here in Britain Matt! Recently Closing down the only wind turbine manufacturer on the Isle...cause they couldn't get planning permission quick enough so have ****** off to China & Amercia!
weldequip

 

[matt1978]

Never let it be said that British goverments didnt support UK manufacturing!

 

[Angusdog]

But you (everybody) keep supporting their demise by buying cheap Chinese stuff!
weldequip

I know. And the excuse I use (and it is an excuse) is that I can't afford a Miller or whatever. So I buy chinese or I don't do it.

The excuse for industry is that if they don't buy chinese, then their competitors will and undercut them. It's the problem with free trade and it's turned previous global giants (the UK, the US and more) into service economies. I don't know the ultimate outcome, the power of China is unmatched. Their human rights record, their treatment of workers, none of it is any good. They say Thing globally, act locally, but it's the tragedy of the commons.

 

[matt1978]

In all seriousness though, what will happen if in 10-15 or even 20 yrs time nothing of any merit is manufactured in the West, imagine the knock on effect and how many millions will be un-employed.

Everything would collapse on itself, China included, because they would also lose millions of customers.

Or maybe I am missing something??

 

[weldequip]

Take it down to 5 years
weldequip

 

[matt1978]

I can only speak about Welding machines, but it must apply to other products, but items are not just more expensive because they are made in the west. It's because of countless other factors such as, Quality and Consistancy of componants used, Research & Development costs, After sales service/Support, Warrantys and obviously the higher manufacturing costs........

But there are also things which go on we are really hypocritical of (Certainly in UK and Europe) Such as........

We want to save the planet so the EU brings in tough legislation that prohibits the use of certain types of electrical componants that cannot easily be recycled and which contain high amounts of toxic metals such as Cadmium/Mercury etc. So the knock on effect is anything manufactured in the EU must conform to these new measures or they get hit with Hundreds of thousands euro fines and court cases! So the costs of these product redesign/changes have to be born by the Western manufacturer just to comply.......

Another green idea, was to implement, Electrical goods re-cycling, so now Western manufacturers have to take measures and spend money on informing people on where they can take there old/unwanted electrical items for recycling. Again, massive costs that have to be paid for by the Western manufacturers.

Workers rights............in most European countries, we want to enjoy great working conditions, minimum wages (even for the most menial of jobs) with Holiday pay, Maternity pay, Pensions, paid for Break times etc etc all again which must be paid for by the manufacturers.

Unemployment/redundancy benefits are all contributed too by companies in the form of employers national insurance which collectively must cost them billions

Now all of the above is fair enough.......I agree with it, we are a civillised society and why shouldn't hardworking people expect a good standard of living..........or people who are down on there luck, have a helping hand from the government in the form of benefits........so with this in mind, why cant we see that collectively we are all in one way or another guilty of undermining our values and long term prosperity by opting for the "cheaper" option now.

Most Chinese manufacturers dont have too, nor do they adhere to any of the EU imposed electrical componant regulations that Western manufacturers have too. So why bother burdening our own manufacturers with all of this stuff, if the purchasing public buys from companies which dont conform.

Why would we be shocked and outraged if our sons or daughters were forced to work 80 hours a week in the ****tiest of conditions with no care from the employer if they died or got seriously ill carrying out the unsafe work practises but we quite happily let someone else kids do the jobs just because the product costs less.

And another reason why these items seem and are really cheap right now is because the Chinese government is subsidising there curreny to make exports artificially more attractive to other countries.........its not just because everythin is cheaper over there.

God knows where it will all end up!

 

[matt1978]

Good stuff Matt, all very true, but I'm afraid it's overlooked by the Chinese & a large proportion of the Great British buying public!
weldequip

I know........and like I said, this isn't just about welding machines......its about everything Washing machines, Microwaves, Mobile phones, Furniture, Cars, Clothes, Computers etc etc and feck knows where it will all end coz thats a lot of people to be on the dole.

Atleast I will get to watch GMTV and Jeromy Kyle every day

 

[weldequip]

God knows where it will all end up!

In China mate, in China. Learn the lingo, sell your dollars & move to Shanghi!
weldequip

 

[GeorgeB]

I went to an exhibition in London about 5 years ago where all the exhibitors were from the Far East, seeking to sell directly to retailers, rather than via numerous middlemen. The range of products was huge. The unit prices were incredible, as long as you ordered container type quantities. One example I recall was a range of enamelled cast iron saucepans which looked very similar to the range by Le Creuset, and just as good quality, as far as I could tell.. Anyway, whereas a Le Creuset saucepan might cost £60, these were more like £3 for the same size. I hope they do well because Le Creuset's pricing is wicked and the quality isn't all it's cracked up to be. If Le Creuset go out of business, it will be their own fault for being greedy.

 

[matt1978]

But as I said Geroge, a lot of Le Creuset's pricing would include a lot of the things I outlined earlier, such as Minimum wage of around 6-8 euros an hour for the basic jobs, no doubt a good pension scheme and a whole host of other employee benefits a lot of us have taken for granted in the West.

Also, there prices would be in some ways dictated to them by the middle men or in this case, Supermarkets, Department stores etc, who all demand 50%-60% mark ups, which in turn helps them to pay for there employees wages, pensions, subsidised canteens etc etc.

I am not saying all stuff from China is bad, because that certainly isn't the case, a lot of decent products come from there.

I am not defending a case that you should pay £60 for somthing which you may well be able to buy for a fiver, I am just pointing out that its not a simple case of black and white. A lot of the upward price pressure, is self imposed from the lifestyle we all enjoy in Westernised countries.

 

[Seano]

Whether I am right or wrong I don't know, its just my personal opinion, I blame the men at the top in this country, the likes of company directors and shareholders who are given ever increasing salaries and bonuses to enable them to live in their lavish lifestyles, I agree with what both Matt and Steve have said regarding R&D and worker benefits in the west, and worker numbers and production costs, the likes of china will always be able to not only compete but rule in the production and sales markets across the world largely due to there knockoff manufacturing ideals and also basically they don't give a toss about there people or how they are treated, but then that is common knowledge.

I may live in a simplistic world but would it not be better for whatever manufacturing there is left in this country to look at reducing their overheads, and I mean at the very top, then the cost of manufacturing to enable the finished product to sold at a lower cost in the uk or market place.

When I left the seismic exploration industry I went to work for a local company called Nortell who manufactured semiconductors and laser products for the telecoms industry, when I was employed there I was one of six thousand, within two years of me going there that place was almost totally closed down, and why.....because they moved there operation to Shanghai who were manufacturing semicons so cheaply we could not compete both here in the uk and in Canada where the other plant was, that put four thousand people out of work in the southwest alone, I think Steve could end up being right... we will all end up working for the Chinese....one way or another, sadly I see the greater of our problem as greed, not to mention a certain lady who nationalized and sold off some of our largest production and manufacturing companies, yes she brought the unions to heal in an effort to stop them ruining our country, but in the end it still went tits up because we had nothing left to manufacture for sale around the world, I come from one of the areas in this country with one of the largest Steel manufacturing mills in the uk, it breaks my heart whenever I visit my family to see my hometown looking like a wild west ghost town, all because of cheaper products from Asia. Both Matt and Steve know long I have been chasing a tig machine but Ill be damned if I am going to go out and buy a Chinese machine just because it is cheap ...cheap...(I know Steve) but at least they have been (fettled) I would rather not weld at all than buy that ****e from fleabay.

Its about time our government realized that Asia is crucifying this country with their knockoff cheap crap, but wait... no that would mean that there own pockets would get lighter and that would never do, sorry if this looks like a rant, it is not really it is just the way I see our situation in this country.

Sean.

 

[matt1978]

Trouble is Sean, its too late for our country now. This conversation should of took place in the 60's and early 70's (before my time!). All we can try and do now is to try and make sure that Western manufacturing in general doesn't go the same way.

The UK was one of the very first to enter the this recession, a good, 6-8 mths before the likes of France and Germany and this is because our economy is mainly based on Finance/FTSE, Manufacturing makes up a very small part in comparison. Germany and France entered the recession later than us and have officially come out of recession already, while we are still in it.........the only reason I can see why is because there GDP is spread out over more sectors. Manufacturing (esp cars) being one of them.

I am as guilty as everyone else , we are all greedy in one way or another, its not just the people at the top and don't be under any illusions that the directors/owners of these Chinese and Indian companies are not mulit-millionaires, even billionaires in some cases. I have seen it first hand, while I worked in India. Although I must admit I have never set foot in China, but I know plenty who have been there and told me what a lot of factories are like.

We all want the best for a little as possible.........its all fuelled by our desire to 'keep up with the Jones's' and have nice and comfortable lifestyles.

If I started a factory in some dodgy backstreet, in any UK or even European town, had conditions that you wouldn't keep animals in, gave my employees next to no health & safety PPE and paid them around 50p a day, how many job applications would I get and how long would it be before I was closed down? I'll get some .pdf application forms up in the Members forum

 

[Seano]

Whil'st I do not disagree with your comments Matt, I fortunately or otherwise..... whichever way you look at it am a product of the (working) 60's and when I left school in 66 there was more work and apprenticeships than you knew what to do with, it saddens me greatly to know what this country was like and what it is now like, i often think that we will see a global change of roll if you will, the east are becoming the major manufacturing and export countries of the world and we if you like are becoming a western third world, imho there is nothing Great about Britain any more.